V8 engine data

[binggy]

Rookie question.

I'm on my way to building my AC Cobra and i'm in the process of trying to understand everything I need.

Research on chassis, frame, and body are done.

I'm now on engines and suspension.

Can you guys point me to sites that offer excellent information/specs regarding V8 engines? I'm trying to understand or get an idea of what kind of power the different variants produce. I have (or at least I think that's what's in my 67 T-Bird) a 302. A friend told me yesterday that he has a spare 302 he can sell at a friendly price. I want to know what parts make up a V8 engine
(particularly a 302 - 5 liter?) and how it works. I also want to learn what other options are out there.

I've never driven a a vehicle with a V8 engine. My point of reference would be experience from my 2.0L Honda Accord, Yamaha YZF-R6 (600cc), and Suzuki GSXR-1100. I learned from these 2 bikes that more power doesn't necessarily translate to more fun. I found out that the 600cc has more than sufficient power and is actually more enjoyable. I wonder if this in some way applies to AC Cobras with small block vs big block engines.

My intentions for the car would be:
90% - 300 to 600 km leisure (but fast) weekend drives.
5% - short midnight destination romps with my biker buds
5% - 2 race track days per year

Looking forward to any tips and suggestions you think may help guide me in my adventure.

Thanks.

[Buzz]

Binggy, thats quite a broad set of questions there, my friend. We won't get directly into the big block vs. small block issue (hot topic - do a search ) but you are correct in your basic assessment that it does not take a monster motor with a ton of horsepower to have fun in a small, light car like the Cobra. A stock 302 or 351 Ford V8 with a few basic add-ons like a good manifold, cam, carb and ignition system will give you an easy 300+ HP and bolted into a 2300 to 2600 pound car will run plenty fast for most people without undue stress or longevity issues. Here's the problem, though. With a Cobra, everyone expects it to be ready to defend its badass rep, including the owner. Being quicker than most of the ordinary cars out there is sedom enough after the initial novelty of ownership; everyone with a hopped up Honda or a Mitsubishi Evo will want to challenge you. I don't recommend racing on public roads, but human nature will have you wanting to know that your Cobra can back up that rumbling exhaust note and threatening appearance. You're gonna want respect! Build it with enough power from the start especially as you live in a place that does not give you easy access to powertrain upgrades.
For a starting point in your search for info, visit the engine manufacturers listed here on the home page under "CC Advertisers". Look at the various engine combinations that they sell and note the performance parts listed and the resulting power that the engine puts out. Note which pieces you are interested in and go to a vendor's site like Summit Racing
http://www.summitracing.com/
and browse around for prices, specifications and alternatives. Good luck. What decisions have you made regarding the body and chassis?

[Excaliber]

The 302 just continues to amaze me of it's capability, the motor really responds well to "bolt on" after market parts.

A recent article I read used a stock 302. AFR heads, after market intake\carb, a fairly mild cam like the Ford OEM E-303 and a set of headers of course. It made 400 horse power and my jaw drop! NOT a lot of money, NOT "exotic" parts, NOT a lot of engine building knowledge required. Simply amazing!

One thing to note about the various Car Magazine engine build tests. If you want the same horse power they got you MUST use exactly the same parts. It's how the "whole of the parts" work together that makes the difference.

[binggy]

Thanks for the tips.

I've been trying to get my hands on as much material I can find regarding V8 engines. Unfortunately, I've yet to find info that details the parts of the engine and what role each plays in making the engine function.

The data you guys have pointed me to has been a big help in informing me of what parts I can change and what end result or benefit (in HP gained) will be achieved.

Buzz my man, good news and bad news, Good news is as fate would have it, I found a very decent and accommodating fellow who has been restoring and scratch-building cars as a hobby for the past 25 years. He's built almost a hundred cars, 4 of which have been AC Cobras. He actually had one in his shop (1 he built in 1999) that his customer is selling. It would have been the easy way out but I realize what I really want is a cobra that I had a big hand in building.

That was the first time I saw a finished AC Cobra. Man, I thought it looked great in pictures but seeing, hearing and sitting in it was like the day I picked up my R6 from the dealer ... or the first time I laid eyes on my newborn son or ... you get the picture.

Bad news is it's going to punch a big hole in my wallet. I computed that for the price, I could buy me a used Mitsubishi Eclipse and a pair of used Miatas. Then again, I can drive all day (even a whole year) and see many miatas and eclipses -- and not see a single AC Cobra.

Well as they say, you get what you pay for. And everyone I asked who knew him said his work is well worth the wait and cost. Being in the situation i'm in, i'm lucky to even have this option. With this project, i intend to have as much involvement in the sanding, welding, bolting, etc. This will make the car 10 times more valuable to me.

Body is from a 427 mold. 2 of the Cobras he built were raced here and my chassis will be the same as those.

Some pics:

427 body waiting to be worked on.


Cobra #2 ... Dude who built this will build mine ... soon!!! Mine will be in this color too.




A few simple questions which I'm begging to be answered:

1. What does 302 mean when you say that it's a 302 engine and how does it relate to the 289, 427, and 429?

2. What does 351W mean?

3. I plan to stick with a stock 302 engine but should I go for the bolt-on upgrades, in what order do you think I should prioritize the upgrade parts? That's way down the road as I figure to finish the project in 2-4 years. By then, I estimate alloting around $500 per month to spend on upgrades. Or ... would I be better off saving for the whole gamut of upgrade parts then spending for and attaching them in one go?

As for them suped up civics, evos, porsches ... me and my trusty R6 have whooped their behinds more times than i can remember. I'm 100% sure i'll have the self control to refrain from street racing the Cobra because I plan to grow old with it plus the weekend drives will mostly be with the wifey. Leave 5am, enjoy a 150 km drive to the outskirts, have a hearty breakfast, then cap it off with a fun 150 km ride back. We should well be home by 9am -- just in time to catch the kids waking up

[Excaliber]

The now discontinued in regular Ford production 302 cubic inch engine has been around a LONG time. The series started in 1960-61. It has seen duty in just about every Ford product over the years. Vans, pickups, Ford's, Mustangs, Mercury's. Best known for it's use in the Mustang series, now replaced by the modern 4.6 engine, an entirely new design which shares nothing with the old 302, often called the 5.0.

The Windsor engine family (produced in Windsor) started out life as a 221, grew to 260 and settled down for some historic years as the legendary 289 (Cobras used them). Grew some more to 302 and then stopped growing with the final application, a 351W (Windsor). NOT to be confused with it's cousin the 351C (Cleveland), a completely different engine which was only produced a few years.

The 427 is in the FE family, started life in 1959. 331, 352, 360, 390, 427 and 428 (no doubt I missed a couple of versions). The FE series is totally different than the Windsor series engines. 427-428 used in the 1965 and up Cobras.

429 is a "385" series engine, nothing in common with the other families, a new design. 429 and 460 being the most popular. Never used in the Cobra lineup. Was used in some Mustangs.

First up-grade for a 302 (for me) would be an intake manifold\carb (or EFI up-grade), camshaft and finally heads.

[Rickd]

If you can select any year of 302 motor it would be good to get one of 87-88 vintage, ideally the HO version that was in the Mustang gt. This one had forged, dished pistons, that will take a bunch of HP with no problem and are excellent for aftermarket heds. This was a stock 225 hp motor, with a mild roller cam. I've got one in my Unique cobra and I've ordered Trick Flow Twisted Wedge cylinder heads and a new cam (222 / 222; .500 / .500). Those, along with my Edelbrock RPM intake and a new Speed Demon carb, should put it solidly in the 300+ range. Good luck.
Rick

[Buzz]

Binggy, you are probably more used to referring to engine size in litres or cc's. The 302, 351, 427, etc. refer to the engine size or displacement in cubic inches. The 302 is 5.0 litres or 5000cc, the 351 is 5.8L or 5800cc and the 427 is about 7L or 7000cc. The "W" in 351w stands for Windsor which is the city in which the plant where these engines were assembled was located. The reason for the distinction is that there was another 351 (5.8L) engine offered by Ford known as the 351C - for Cleveland - which was a different engine altogether. The engines offered in the original Cobras were first a 260, soon replaced by the 289 in the small block leaf-spring suspension cars and the 427 in the big block, coil spring suspension Cobras. Later in production, a 428 cubic inch motor was quietly slipped in as a substitute for the more expensive and powerful 427. As far as making these engines work - they are from the old tried and proven school of thought that says: SIZE DOES MATTER! What the new, smaller, higher tech engines of today accomplish with multi-valve heads, vvt,EFI, computers and turbochargers, these magnificent monsters do with sheer cubic inch displacement. It's all about how much air and fuel you can pump through the engine and in the good old days before fuel costs and emissions were issues, an easy way to big power was a big bore and a long stroke. As a result of this approach all you need to do (basically) with these engines to get more power is to make them breathe more air and feed them more fuel. You can start with simple bolt on parts like exhaust headers and a good intake manifold and carburetor, then move on to an aftermarket ignition system and continue on from there. A high performance camshaft and a set of higher flowing cylinder heads is the next logical step. By now you are making decent power and torque and if you want to go further you need to think about more involved issues like beefing up your valve train, oiling system and bottom end (crankshaft, main bearings, etc.). It's all pretty basic but the key to making it work properly is to have well matched components. Companies like Holley and Edelbrock sell matched components in sets (or individually) for specific engines and known, tested performance gains. Check them out on the Summit Racing site.
That body in the pictures looks pretty good. Post a few more pics and some of the frame and suspension if you can. We would love to hear more details about how the cars are built and what suspension/drivetrain components they use. Keep the questions coming - there's a lot of folks here with the knowledge and desire to help you out.

[binggy]

note the signatures on the glove compartment ... signed by the gods when they visited (properly clear-coated)

[binggy]

Frankly, i'm amazed and very much pleasantly surprised to have found a site like this that has knowledgeable people who share info so willingly.

I'll continue reading up some more so that as much as possible, I don't ask questions on info already discussed. It's just that some info I need/want is discussed but buried in not-so-easy-to-find threads.

Like I told the guy who'll build my cobra, i've had wonderful sleepless nights ever since i got bit by the AC Cobra bug.

My reasons for wanting to keep the 302 engine stock are 1) fear of having an engine that produces more power but also significantly eats up more fuel and 2) desire to have an engine that lasts as long as it should. Note that for now, I intend to use the car mostly for 300 to 600 km leisure (100kph average) weekend drives. I haven't driven cobras or mustangs but i've driven an Expedition, F150 and an E-150. I don't know what engines they have or how much power they produce compaired to the 302 but I do know they made ample thrust to power those heavy beasts. How do the the engines in these beasts compare to the 302? It would be mind-boggling to imagine an engine powering an expedition to power a small convertible that's about half its weight.

What i do know is their 3-4 kms to a liter (4 liters to a gallon and 1.6 kms to a mile) consumption. My concern isn't so much to save on fuel cost but in the idea of needing to look for a gas station sooner than soon. I guess more power means more air and fuel used in the process. How much mileage do you generally get from a stock 302 versus one with the upgrades listed above?

[Excaliber]

Looking for a gas station? Man I ALWAYS keep an eye out for them.

17 gallon tank, 8 miles to a gallon with my 427, thats what 100-125 miles before you need a re-fill? Looking for a gas station is a way of life for me.

...302, hmmmm, sounds good to me!

[binggy]

Excaliber, just checked your thread that details your project. Bookmarked it as it'll take a while to read through it. Great so far!

[binggy]

Did some research. Having ridden bikes the last few years, I understand the concept of power-to-weight ratio quite well indeed. Based on these numbers, the AC Cobra is a monster even with a stock 302 engine!


Honda Accord (stock)

engine - 2.4L or 2400cc
power - 160 hp @ 5500 rpm
torque - 161 ft lbs @ 4500 rpm
weight - 4300 lbs


Ford Expedition (stock)

engine - 5.4L or 5409cc
power - 301 hp @ 5000 rpm
torque - 365 ft lbs @ 3750 rpm
weight - 7100 lbs


AC Cobra (stock 302)

engine - 5.0L or 5000cc
power - 225 hp @ 5500 rpm ?
torque - 300 ft lbs @ 4500 rpm ?
weight - 2220 lbs


With these stats alone, i'm looking forward to experiencing the kind of pull the Cobra will make. The Cobra (stock 302) has a third more HP, almost double the torque and practically half the weight of the Accord. Versus the Expedition, the Cobra (stock 302) has 75% the power and 80% torque at 30% of its weight.

I guess (and I hope) the thrill of driving a Cobra will be very similar to that of riding fast bikes.

Talked to the builder and he advised (like Buzz mentioned) we go with a few "simple bolt-ons" from the get go because he's sure i'll be asking for them a month or 2 after taking delivery of the car. I'll get the list from him tomorrow or this weekend at the latest then post it here for your comments.

[Rickd]

Sounds like you're having fun! Curious to see what bolt ons he recommends. I ran my motor upgrade by my head supplier for his comments and he is projecting that the "tweaked" motor will have approximately 340 HP at 5800 RPM. That's with aluminum heads (a simple bolt on), my existing Edelbrock RPM intake manifold, and new cam. That's quite an increase from 225 HP, and will require some cautious learning, but should be a blast.
Enjoy and keep us posted. Rick

[binggy]

Here are some links to engine data i've found to be extremely helpful.


Tables regarding 302, 351W and Cobra Replica V8 engines

Table of Ford Mustang Engines with HP ratings

Q & A about engines and upgrades

[binggy]

Rick, it's great to hear that with those relativley simple and no too costly upgrades, we can enjoy a 50% increase in HP without upsetting the general performance of the car ... whoah, i think i may be starting to sound like i know what i'm talking about.