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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2006, 09:31 AM
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Default Alternative to hood scoop...

Hi All:

The time has come to pay the piper for the placement of my engine and for additional changes I've made during the rebuild.

Bottom line: A hood scoop just isn't gonna work for me. I don't particularly like them in the first place, and the resulting changes I would need to make to keep one would produce an ill-proportioned joke.

One thought was to go w/ a bump in the hood w/ a plenum and remote air filters..., but that won't work either.

The solution I think I'm settling on is the following:

1. Fabricate a shell to enclose the existing hole in the hood and accomodate the protrusion of the carb above the hood. The general idea would be to leave a hole in the shell of sufficient dimensions to accomodate the carb throat/inlet. One of the styling objectives of the piece will be to avoid sharp angles and slab sides..., I want it smooooooth. The shell will be affixed w/ either pop rivets, or some sort of low key clean, but visible, hardware.

2. Incorporate into the shell some type of louvers to help promote air flow through the engine compartment..., to supplement the side vents. Also will hopefully help dissipate heat during shutdown/cooldown.

3. Whatever air cleaner I choose will be mounted atop the shell..., i.e., the air cleaner will not be enclosed.

Yes..., this will be a somewhat unconventional look. Yes..., it means I have to remove the filter everytime I pop the hood. I'm cool with that.

But now..., I get to avoid a freakish scoop, and I can run w/ any air cleaner I want. The visibility of the air cleaner sorta goes with the "basic" mechanical look I've taken w/ the car.

(I'll try to take some pictures this afternoon w/ the hood set in place, to illustrate the problem)

What say ye?
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Old 06-03-2006, 03:30 PM
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Default Pictures...

Part of the problem is that I can't actually enlarge the hole in the hood rearwards..., without eating into an already marginal stiffner.

The little cardboard tabs taped to the carb are to help me visualize the position of the carb w/ a 1" carb spacer.

Anyways..., the images follow...




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Old 06-03-2006, 03:58 PM
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Looks like a lot of engine setback. I'm running an old FE with 2x4s and a tall tunnel wedge intake. I'm following your thread to see what you do. I liked the scoop that I have seen on the Shelby spec racers I saw at Finnishline in Las Vegas. They were made for single four engines and they would accomasdate a large airfilter. I bought their original alluminum pattern .The rest are laid up fiberglass scoops. I don't know how much of a daily driver but with the hole in the hood you have wouldn't rain on the distributor be a problem? The original SC scoop was an afterthought . .High pressure area was probably ahead of scoop and behind.Probably didn't scoop at all.Remember that after that period cowl induction started.
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Old 06-03-2006, 06:13 PM
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Hi Michael:

Thx for the comments..., I'll see if I can find any useful photos...

Yeah, there is a lot of setback. Makes working on things a real pleasure... (not).

The upside is that if I wanted to put a turkey pan in the car..., I could put it in front of the engine and roast an actual turkey.

I just removed the scoop today, to begin the process..., don't plan on driving in the rain anytime soon... It's true that when I washed the car..., I stuffed a rag in the scoop inlet to prevent the problem you mentioned.

I'll keep posting my progress...
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:36 PM
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Looks like an Arntz Cobra. Looking at the picture from the side I can tell you the top of your carb is about an inch lower than mine (mine has a plate under it about an inch thick for the nitrous foggers).

I have a scoop over mine that is the exact size and shape as one on an original 427 car, but it is mounted an inch farther back on my car (took close measurements from the CSX car, and hammered my scoop out of aluminum).

My hood has only a hole in it the diameter of a K&N stub stack which I have on my carb which sits just below flush with the top hood surface.

I use a piece of foam material that K&N sells as a 'prefilter' iside the hoodscoop to keep the large stuff and the bugs out. Not perfect, but not a terrible compromise.

The scoop :


There is a guy locally who has an Excalibur Cobra with a big block in it who has a large air filter on top of the hood as you propose, so It has been done before. I will with hold comment on how it looks.

This is unfortunately the only picture I have of it, when someone hid the car on him at a car show :
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:53 PM
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Underhood pix of two Shelby Exhibition Class Racers as mentioned above :
CSX4084


Similar car topside


The setup on another car which I liked a lot


Similar car topside (note the intakes in place of the headlights)
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Last edited by Yetiman; 06-03-2006 at 07:55 PM..
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:53 PM
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Yetiman:

First picture..., mmmm.

Second picture..., eeek!

I wasn't planning anything quite that outlandish..., but it does suggest trouble may lie in that direction. Thx for finding such an appropriate picture!

So..., plan B:

1. Install 1" carb spacer to achieve the height the little cardboard tabs in my pictures indicate. Apart from experimenting with the induction system a bit..., it also helps the geometry problem a bit.

2. I can't move my scoop hole back any further.

3. Install 9" K&N. Or something. Or another. Actually, the 9" won't work..., some assume..., something.

4. Using the original scoop as a starting point..., now separated from the hood, modify/fabricate an "umbrella" scoop. I.e., the bottom of the scoop will not actually contact the hood..., but will be supported by nicely made (TBD) standoffs (maybe a truss pattern) at the four corners of the scoop.

I've already played with this arrangement a bit..., and all I can say at this point is that it will take some finesse to make it look OK.
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:55 PM
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Ooops..., didn't see the rest of the picture..., thx for those too!
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:56 PM
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Tomorrow..., I'll take some pictures w/ the hood off..., so you get a general idea of the internal clearance problems.

One of the options I considered was a plenum w/ ductwork to remote filters..., but I couldn't figure out how to squeeze that in either.

Sigh...
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Old 06-04-2006, 12:47 PM
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Default Pictures w/o hood...

I've attached pictures w/o the hood.

Ultimately, the carb will sit 1" higher..., so my earlier photos include little cardboard tabs to help show where things will end up.

Wrt which air cleaner I might use for "Plan B"..

1. One possibility is:

http://www.kandn.com/images/l/66-5080R.JPG
or
http://www.kandn.com/images/l/66-5080F.jpg

but I don't know what they can actually flow or if they will be adequate..., but they are the right shape..., I'll face the long end forward.

2. Another possibility is the 'ol standard "Cobra" oval style cleaner.

But since I don't know the exact dimensions..., I don't know if there will be sufficient rearward clearance.

Anyways..., keeping in mind that I don't want to enlarge the scoop hole rearwards (and don't want to move the engine forwards )..., the following are the "hood off" pictures...





Last edited by proudlakester; 06-04-2006 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:36 PM
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Ok I see a dandy hole what did you have before? While shopping for a replacement windsheild I found a dandy scoop with carbon fiber overlay at ShellValleys website.
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:46 PM
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Does anyone have a better picture of that shell valley scoop ? theone on their web site is barely a thumbnail pic.
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:40 PM
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Well..., I'm out of town this week..., so I can't run over to take a picture.

The old scoop was similar to the one on the white Cobra w/ the attractive driver.

Relatively small..., sloping considerably to the rear. It didn't really work w/ the old Performer 390 intake that was on the car. It completely doesn't work w/ the Performer RPM..., and it REALLY doesn't work w/ the Perf RPM + 1" carb spacer.

One of the things I'm trying to avoid is a "boxy" scoop..., of course, it may be inevitable.

I definitely appreciate your suggestions though..., so I'll mosey over to the Shell Valley web site and have a look-see. Y' never know!!!

Cheers!
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:46 PM
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OK..., looked at the "C2004CFT".

I'm gonna send email to Shell Valley to see if they have any dimension info...

Thx!
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Old 06-05-2006, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetiman
I hate to see you cut into or change the hood. That's just my personal preference but I just think it looks best as it was originally built. I like the pic above & wanted to add some ideas. Though most are weber related I think you can see where I'm going with it. I personally think it would be best if you fabricated a flat plate to sit over the carb yet fit under the complete opening of the hood & attach some foam which sandwiches up against the hood when closed. I would then attach or build some type filter piece to cover the front opening when closed to completely filter all air yet retain the original look.


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Old 06-06-2006, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetiman
Similar car topside
Can you buy this hood scoop anywhere?

Thanks,

Simon
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Old 06-06-2006, 08:19 AM
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Simon

Yes .... Tom's motorsports.... in Las Vegas....

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Old 06-06-2006, 10:57 PM
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Hi *13*:

Yah..., if I could retain the original "small" s/c style scoop..., I would. But..., even without the 1" spacer..., the carb is already above the hood line.

I was hoping to stick w/ the rule of thumb of no surfaces closer than 3" from the carb's intake rim. Even if I compromise that a bit..., it's still difficult to stick w/ the original scoop. Which leaves the larger scoops..., boxy..., sorta slab-sided..., OK, I'm biased..., I just don't like 'em.

I like the look of the car w/ no scoop at all. But..., that ain't gonna work either. I've already played w/ differing diameters of ducting and nothing routes well..., so the remote filter w/ plenum solution doesn't work. Adding a bump to accomodate the plenum..., as some of the pictures have illustrated..., doesn't really do it for me either.

So..., it seems to come down to the following:

1. Go with a larger scoop and live with it.
2. Experiment w/ the umbrella scoop idea.

Neither solution should require modifications to the hood..., and I'll be able to remove either to experiment w/ the other.

We'll see!!!
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:28 AM
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Sounds like your headed in the right direction. Experimenting can be a lot of work but hopefully you'll run into the best solution along the way
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Old 06-07-2006, 03:29 PM
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Came across this pic. May not work for you but another modified setup.
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