Getting ready to pull my 351W. Help.

donraye · #1 (**permalink**) 12-10-2008, 09:49 PM

I know this has probably been discussed lots of time but I still would like some feedback before I attempt it. I'm about to pull my 351 Windsor out and have had some say that doing it with the tranny (T-5) on would be easier than taking the tranny off from under the car. Others say the exact opposite.
I would like to hear from some people who have ACTUALLY done it one or both ways.
I am leaning towards pulling the tranny first but there is something to be said about how much easier that would be if it were done with the engine out instead of from under the car.
Seems like if I rent a transmission dolly of some kind (I have a couple of regular jacks plus a small one) that it would be easy to just drop the driveshaft and unbolt everthing and slide/pull the tranny straight back. then pull the engine.
Also: I was going to pull the engine from the side not the front as it seems better to me (if the tranny is off it), and I have more room in my garage to do it that way than from the front. Why do it from the front since I can get the hoist a lot closer to the engine form the side than to reach way back to it from the front with the boom a lot further extended?
Any commnets on side pull vs. front? Who has done it and which way?
Thanks, Don

FWB · #2 (**permalink**) 12-10-2008, 09:57 PM

i never liked pulling from side, if trans is attached its even harder. the wheels on the hoist don't swivel. if the trans is on its hard to tip the tailshaft to clear the firewall when the legs of the hoist are in the way. the windsor isn't heavy, so with the boom extended from the front it should go fine.get some old couch cushions to protect the nose from the hoist. beer and two friends, oh did i mention the beer.

donraye · #3 (**permalink**) 12-10-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWB

i never liked pulling from side, if trans is attached its even harder. the wheels on the hoist don't swivel. if the trans is on its hard to tip the tailshaft to clear the firewall when the legs of the hoist are in the way. the windsor isn't heavy, so with the boom extended from the front it should go fine.get some old couch cushions to protect the nose from the hoist. beer and two friends, oh did i mention the beer.

Thanks for the tip. Actually the wheels on my hoist do swivel though. If I deside to pull with the tranny I'll definintely pull from the front, but without the tranny the side still seems better perhaps thanks to my swiveling hoist wheels at both front and rear of this hoist.
I'll consider your tip (especially the couch cushions and beer) as still a possibility, and the voice of experience is helpful.
Thanks, Don

Ron61 · #4 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 02:25 AM

When I pulled mine I did it with the Transmission off, but my tranny was easy to remove. It only too about 20 minutes to have it out. Then the engine was easy to remove as I took the hood off and pulled it from the front. I had plenty of room and clearance to work with.

Ron

blykins · #5 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 04:06 AM

I installed my 428/TKO in my Shell Valley with them bolted together. You need to get the front of the car up just enough so that the legs of the engine hoist will go underneath the car. If I remember correctly, I had to straddle the driver's front tire with the hoist legs to get the boom out in the right spot. Put the front of the car up on cap block, or wood, and jack the rearend of the car up as high as it will go and let it sit on ramps or jack stands. You will need a hoist leveler so that you can choose any angle that you wish.

To me, getting under the car and having to wrestle a 100lb transmission isn't fun at all. I've done it both ways, and putting it in/taking it out with them together seemed the easiest to me.

Roscoe · #6 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 05:51 AM

When I pulled my engine out for a rebuild I took everything off down to the block and pulled out the engine/tranny. Took the hood off, of course.

Roscoe

bobcowan · #7 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 09:25 AM

I find it much easier to seperate them, and pull the engine from the side. Why hassle with the trans if you don't need to? You have to remove the hood, remove the shifter, drain the trans, plug the rear, remove the drive shaft, disconnect the speedometer, etc. Nothing complicated, but adds more time and effort to the job that just isn't necessary. Then you have to reconnect and adjust every thing oncve it's all back in. I bet it would easily add 2 hours to your job, and probably more like three.

Get out a tape measure and see how far it is from the nose to the center of the engine. It's a long way. I have a standard shop crane, and it won't safely lift the engine with the boom extended out that far. It would be even worse with a trans attached.

Clois Harlan · #8 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 02:18 PM

Bob,

That is the way I prefer pulling my engine. Remove the hood first then drain your fluids. Unbolt the six bolts holding your bell housing, remove, starter, disconnect clutch linkage, headers and side pipes, water hoses, fuel lines, linkage and electrical. Put a little tension on the engine with the cherry picker in place and remove the motor mount bolts. Then pry the bell housing away from the engine and "Voilla"I have pulled my engine in less than two hours and then there were those other times when nothing went the way it should that I spent all day just getting my side pipes off!

Some days are chickens and others are fethers!

Roscoe · #9 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 06:10 PM

When you have an engine stand like this it's easy to work on and re-mount the drivetrain.

Roscoe

Dwight · #10 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 06:33 PM

I have an engine lift that I have modified to pull the motor out of a Cobra from the front. I have extended the arm, re-inforced the wheel and add 120 pounds of lead to counterbalance the motor. This lift has pulled maybe a hundred motors. Most of the time with the trannie but a few times without. It's a little easier to install with the trannie but not much. We just installed a 427 in Lainhart's Unique without removing the trannie. It was easy. If two people have pulled a few motors together, it does not take long to install one. We use a engine lever and rig so the chain does not hit the body above the firewall, just in front of the windshield. Lots of towels on the fenders and the front of the car is great insurance. We have never had a problem. Go slow and talk to each other.
I have never pulled one from the side and would not do so.
Dwight

Blittleton · #11 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 08:26 PM

Don,

Are you pulling the motor and trans by yourself? I have installed and removed motors by myself and I have pulled trans and left the trans on. It is what you feel most comfortable with. Please pull the hood off and have as much room as you need. T-5 trans are lighter than most I've pulled, so remove it first if you need to. Hint, if pulling the motor and trans together, use a floor jack under your trans while pulling both motor and trans. this will allow you to move the unit together with more ease, instead of dragging it on the garage floor.

Bill

jshel1 · #12 (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 09:36 PM

I have a couple of videos of in and out on my web page. They were made for fun and not meant to be instructional, but you may be able to pick up something from viewing them and the photos.

Strongly suggest removing transmission and hood.
You will need a more specialized lift to come from the front. Side has always worked very well for T.I.T/T.E.E.T (Install/Extraction

).
Best to have another person to help stabilize/crank/roll the lift.

We always have a large group and make a party out of it.

donraye · #13 (**permalink**) 12-14-2008, 09:41 AM

OK all, I had decided on doing the pull the way Bob Cowan and Clois Harlan have advised by simply prying the bellhousing off the engine and pulling the engine as a separate unit.
But then when all was decided at last some other guys said that I would have a LOT of trouble mating the bellhousing back to the new engine when it came time to do the install with it still in the car. @(_^$@#^(+! So now I have no idea what to do AGAIN!
Would anyone please chime in here about the mating of the engine back up to the bellhousing with the bellhousing/clutch/tranny still in the car/frame? I need to get this done soon and really need your help with this newest wrinkle in the plan.
Thanks, Don

Dwight · #14 (**permalink**) 12-14-2008, 10:14 AM

Don,
use a plastic $8 clutch alignment tool to align your clutch plate so it will make installing the trannie easier. You need to put a yoke in the rear of the trannie to keep the fluid from leaking out and you can turn the yoke to help align the trannie gears with the splines in the clutch as you reinstall the motor. Sometime everything is lined up and it snaps together and sometime it's difficult. Pulling the motor with or without the trannie will work and you don't what is the easy till you finish. If you have someone to help, it will make it a lot easier.

Do it your way and next time you will have the experience to do it different if you want to.

Have fun

It a hobby and should be fun, most of the time.

See ya on the road

Dwight

jshel1 · #15 (**permalink**) 12-14-2008, 09:22 PM

Don,

I second Dwight. You NEED the clutch alignment tool definitely.

With a seasoned pilot bearing already in place and no change of either block or bell housing, the transmission will mate with the clutch like butter. There transmission and bell housing will go together with a nice clap. I seasoned my pilot bearing on a virgin install and it was as described above... NO cinching down of bolts between bell housing and tranny necessary, none.

In fact, we (TIT) have never installed one already mated... always transmission in first, then engine.
Also, remove the hood & go from the side.

donraye · #16 (**permalink**) 12-14-2008, 11:04 PM

[quote=jshel1;905118]Don,

I second Dwight. You NEED the clutch alignment tool definitely.

With a seasoned pilot bearing already in place and no change of either block or bell housing, the transmission will mate with the clutch like butter. There transmission and bell housing will go together with a nice clap. I seasoned my pilot bearing on a virgin install and it was as described above... NO cinching down of bolts between bell housing and tranny necessary, none.

In fact, we (TIT) have never installed one already mated... always transmission in first, then engine.
Also, remove the hood & go from the side.[/QUOTE

Thanks! You, Dwight, Bob Cowan and Clois Harlan have been a God send to me in getting ready to do this! All you're (and their) help as well as all the other kind replies to this thread are highly appreciated and I'd be lost without them.
When I talked to Clois Harlan by PM he said that one reason he pulled his engine (twice just this year!) in this way, was that he did not like having to disconect the hydraulic clutch line and then have to bleed it later on the install. That's why he just pried the bellhousing loose from the engine and then pulled it.
I love that idea but am still unclear about one thing being new to this task.
Will I have to pull the transmission from the bellhousing before I can disconnect the bellhousing from the motor? Or can I leave the tranny/bellhousing in the frame as an un-disturbed unit and pry the engine away from the bellhousing after removing the bellhousing to engine bolts and putting tension on the engine with the hoist and then unbolting the engine mounts? (providing of course that all the other engine periferals are already disconnected and clear).
The way Clois talked about his pulls I got the impression he never disconnected anything between the bellhousing and the tranny but rather just disconnected the bolts that hold the bellhousing to the engine then pryed it away to pull it. Is that correct?
Once I understand that part I think I am ready to go to it at last.
Don

bobcowan · #17 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 08:03 AM

>> Will I have to pull the transmission from the bellhousing before I can disconnect the bellhousing from the motor? Or can I leave the tranny/bellhousing in the frame as an un-disturbed unit and pry the engine away from the bellhousing after removing the bellhousing to engine bolts <<

No, you can leave the trans bolted to the bellhousing.

Hook the hoist to the engine and raise it just enough for the motor mount studs to clear the mounts.

Place a jack under the transmission to hold it in place.

Some gently wiggling should seperate the bellhousing from the block. I'v never had to pry them apart. But, I use antiseize on the block dowels.

There are a couple of tricks to getting it back together with minimal fight.

1. Clutch alignment is crucial. Use the tool, and make sure that it slides in and out with very minimal effort - slight finger pressure. If there's any resistance, you'll struggle getting the input shaft in place.

2. Engine angle needs to match the bellhousing angle. That's where the engine tilter really shines. You can see mine in the second picture. If the engine is tilted at 10*, and the transmission is tilted at 15*, they'll never go together.

TButtrick · #18 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 09:34 AM

bob is right on. You may have to turn the crank slightly for the clutch splines and trans snout to line up so if it seems to be fighting you the last couple of inches, turn the crank slightly and it should slide right in if you've followed bob's directions.

jshel1 · #19 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 03:18 PM

Don,
Do Bob's "wiggle" to get it loose and if you feel that you still need a nudge or a pry, use a 2x4 as a pry bar between the block and some place on the frame to leverage the engine apart from the bell housing.

Be sure to remove the dampener or pad it.

Another 2-3 people couldn't hurt. More merriment to celebrate once your done.

John

SSSammy · #20 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 05:49 PM

Don, I think you'll get it out ok. Have someone to help steady the engine as it pops out of the bellhousing .. else you may bang your frame, or body. Put a blanket in front of it, covering the frame, remove the crank pulley. That will give you another inch of forward clearance. I think you need about 4" or more of forward clearance before you hit the frame to be able to do this.

Getting it back in is trickier. I have had a hell of a time with those plastic alignment tools. They tend to sag a little bit with the weight of the clutch plate. Some pros use an actual trans input shaft from a junk trans to align the clutch before tightening the pressure plate down. If you use the plastic tool, maybe you can have an assistant hold it horizontal while you tighten the pressure plate.

When you are trying to mate them back up, make sure trans is in neutral so the input shaft can turn a little as you shove them together. You will probably need a big 2x4 lever to get enough horizontal force on them to push them home.

Sam