302 for a Mustang

[MAStuart]

Hi Guys! Let's have a little fun with this. I don't want to build a new motor, just want to do a little bench racing. The tread elsewhere on this forum about horsepower from a 351 Windsor and most people didn't seem to think it would make over 350 hp. Seeing that I used to help a friend with a supercomp car (8.90 class) you see all sorts of combos in it. You saw all iron small block chevys carbuerated on gas to what looked like it could have been an injected nitro car. Some cars in excess of 600 in. Some of these cars should have been running in the mid 6's according to the way they looked. Obviously there is a big difference in what some people think you need in equipment to go 8.90. So in this thread, what do you guys think I need to make my 65 stickshift Mustang run in the 13.10 to 12.90 range? Rules: 302 deck highth based engine, must be able to run on cheapest gas you can find, must be plenty driveable (150 mile round trip to the track). What rear gears do you think it will need, heads, etc? Car and driver 3250 pounds. Thanks, Mark

[fordracing65]

4:10 gears, at least

[MAStuart]

That's the way I used to think . Years ago I used to run a 60 falcon on the street with 4.89 gears and g60 15's. It really sucked to drive It to the track. Mark

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Hi Guys! Let's have a little fun with this. I don't want to build a new motor, just want to do a little bench racing. The tread elsewhere on this forum about horsepower from a 351 Windsor and most people didn't seem to think it would make over 350 hp. Seeing that I used to help a friend with a supercomp car (8.90 class) you see all sorts of combos in it. You saw all iron small block chevys carbuerated on gas to what looked like it could have been an injected nitro car. Some cars in excess of 600 in. Some of these cars should have been running in the mid 6's according to the way they looked. Obviously there is a big difference in what some people think you need in equipment to go 8.90. So in this thread, what do you guys think I need to make my 65 stickshift Mustang run in the 13.10 to 12.90 range? Rules: 302 deck highth based engine, must be able to run on cheapest gas you can find, must be plenty driveable (150 mile round trip to the track). What rear gears do you think it will need, heads, etc? Car and driver 3250 pounds. Thanks, Mark

for comparison,my 65 Mustang Fastback is within 100 pounds of your weight,pure street car,runs from high 12.90's to 13.10's depending on the weather and track....drive it to and from the track on 93 octane pump gas...
here's what I have in it:351-W,about 325hp,probably 350 ft.lbs of torque, running a Tremec 5 speed (3.27 first gear), 3.25 rear gears in 9" with a standard Ford Trac-Loc in it, this is on drag radials, not street tires...on my regular street tires,the best I could do was around 13.50s....
I would think you would need at least the same hp/torque in a 302 which is not hard to do, drag radials and if your running a toploader (2.87 first gear) you would need at least a 3.50 rear gear.....
It can be done fairly easy,just need the right parts and pieces.....

David

[MAStuart]

David Tell me more! How tall a tire,60ft,mph,a little more on your engine. mark

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

David Tell me more! How tall a tire,60ft,mph,a little more on your engine. mark

Mark: I haven't drag raced it in number of years since being introduced to road racing,but here goes.....
I think my drag radials (still have them somewhere in my shop) should be somewhere between 23 to 25 inches tall..60' times were around 2.00,maybe 1.90 on a good run, would come off the line at idle and get in the gas with a steady push of the pedal, not just whomp down on it, if I did that, it would spin too much, once in 2cd gear, then it was hammer down the rest of the way(I would always lift off the throttle while shifting), trap speed was in 105mph range...

The engine started life in some ladies 1972 LTD, I got in the junkyard for 50 bucks cause it was knocking badly...took a .040 bore to clean up the cylinders, I ported and polished and gasket matched the factory iron heads and put in some good valves and springs, cam is a Crane hydraulic flat tappet cam with 484 lift/272 duration, idles at 800 rpms smoothly and tops out around 5500 rpms,perfect for what I do with the car. roller rockers on top with an Edlebrock Performer dual plane intake..I built this engine in 1994, the Performer RPM manifold wasn't even out then.The crankshaft and rods are the original stock parts to the engine, $99.00 set of CAST flat top pistons with 4 valve reliefs, 10.2 to 1 compression..antique Holley 600 cfm double pumper that I got out of a trash can (he was throwing it away) at a buddies shop,rebuilt it myself,best carb I ever have had!!!!!!!!!!
Set of long tube headers,X-pipe,2.5 inch exhaust leading to 2 big Ford LTD mufflers,exhaust over the rear end,out the rear..I built it to drive and enjoy and like it kinda quite,like to be able to hold a conversation with someone when cruising and not have to holler at them..
It's a 65 Fastback, painted to look like a 66 GT-350, red w/white stirpes, under-ride traction bars, Versailles 9" disk brake rear end with the 3.25 gear and trac-lok center section....
Nothing fancy,just a good dependable engine with good low end torque...Tremec 5 speed trans. ( which I love,will never have another toploader), low gears 1st thru 3rd for good accelaration,5th gear at 75mph on the interstate gets me 23 mpg at 1900rpms!!!!!!!!!
I never really planned to race the car,just drive and enjoy it, but always wondered what it would do on a drag strip. Then in 1996,they had a Ford Fun meet about 100 miles from me,drove the car there,entered in the street class of 60+ cars and went to the quarter finals my first time ever at a drag strip as a racer or spectator, didn't have a clue what I was doing, 100% pure beginners luck!!!!!!!!!!!!
After that I drag raced the car for the next few years making at least 100 passes,maybe more, had it down pretty good on the launch and was cutting some really good lights and had a lot of fun,then I rode in a real 65 GT-350 road racer and have been hooked on road racing ever since.

I went over the scales at a track once and the guy told me it was 3150 if I remember right...
I would bet with slicks and a harder launch,12.50s or so would be within reach.....

David

[bobcowan]

Dart block, Dart heads, big displacement, EFI and a turbo running on e-85. The cheapest fuel you can buy is e-85. It runs cool, you can boost it to 12-15psi, and shouldn't have any problems on a 100 mile cruise.

[MAStuart]

Bob Your combo sounds like fun ...........but we only need to run 12.90 not 6.90. But then again some guys might not be able to get out the 14.s and some will go real fast. Mark

[MAStuart]

David Your car sounds about the same as mine . It's been a long time since it has to the track . 10-11 years Just got it going again a couple of years ago and drove it on the powertour. I havent even look at it in the last year or so. This year I plan on taking it to the drags ot play a little. I would like to see it run 12.90 on street tires and full exaust.

In a few days I will try to post a pic or two of car and engine ......It needs to be redone again it has had a hard life . 10-15 engines I got this car in 1981 Mark

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

David Your car sounds about the same as mine . It's been a long time since it has to the track . 10-11 years Just got it going again a couple of years ago and drove it on the powertour. I havent even look at it in the last year or so. This year I plan on taking it to the drags ot play a little. I would like to see it run 12.90 on street tires and full exaust.

In a few days I will try to post a pic or two of car and engine ......It needs to be redone again it has had a hard life . 10-15 engines I got this car in 1981 Mark

You'll need some really good street tires and there are plenty of them out there.At the time, I had the 14" 10-spoke wheels on my car and the selection of good 14" tires was non-existant,I had some rock hard Wal Mart tires on,couldn't get it off the line for anything, so I bought a set of 15" steel racing wheels and drag radials just for that.My suspension was totally stock Mustang stuff,not the ideal stuff for drag racing.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Bob Your combo sounds like fun ...........but we only need to run 12.90 not 6.90. But then again some guys might not be able to get out the 14.s and some will go real fast. Mark

Well, that's the good part. Forged internals and Dart block and heads make for a really strong/durable combo. Moderate hydraulic roller cam means low maint and good durability in the valve train without using exotic (expensive) parts.

Small'ish twin turbos means you can dial in just about any power level you want, at any altitude, in any weather.

E-85 means it runs cool in the summer, on just about the cheapest fuel you can buy.

EFI with a distibuterless ignition system will give you almost limitless tuning ability for any situation - self adjusting and self tuning, with the exact timing curve you need.

If I was building another car right now, that's what I'd be doing. That would make an unbeatable all around combo.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Mark;
Here's picture from the local Fourth of July parade probably 10 years ago, my daughter and I have been doing this parade together since I had the car on the road (1995), I think we have missed 3 years for varouis reasons......
David

[puppster]

My 65 fastback is similar. I run a 289 with eddy performr heads and intake, cam is comps 268H extreme energy. T5 and a nine inch with 3.50 gears, bfg 225 radials. Trouble is getting it to hook up 1st and 2nd gears. My best is a 13.86 at 101mph. I figure my combo is good for 300hp.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by puppster

My 65 fastback is similar. I run a 289 with eddy performr heads and intake, cam is comps 268H extreme energy. T5 and a nine inch with 3.50 gears, bfg 225 radials. Trouble is getting it to hook up 1st and 2nd gears. My best is a 13.86 at 101mph. I figure my combo is good for 300hp.

The difference bewteen street tires and drag radials is like night and day,at least on my car....I think because my engine makes a lot of torque down in the low rpms, coming off the line.....On my wally world hard street tires, 13.50's to 13.70's was the best I could do....I wanted to see a 12.90 something pass,hence the drag radials...Other drag racers told me on my car,drag radials should be good for at least 1/2 second and they were right....I'm also thinking with some shock/springs better suited to drag racing, another tenth or two would be possible, my car basically has the stock GT-350 front/rear shocks and springs......

David

[MAStuart]

Hi David your car looks pretty sweet. Mine on the other hand not so sweet. So far response has been about mostly motors on the mild side. This kind of surprised me because most guys build motors for there cobras that are wild and expensive compared to the combos in the above mustangs. Some of the cobra are about 1000 pounds lighter and have more hp and some are not a lot faster in the 1/4. So if you have no traction in your mustang on street tires a cobra on street tires and more motor must be real hard to launch. Anyhow my car at one point in time ran 12.42 at 109.9. To run these numbers the car was setup like this. 26 x8 M/T slicks , 9 inch ford with 3.50 gears, Slapper bars that you put on at the track(hitch pins),t5 trans, globel west leaf springs and shackels, globel west upper controle arms with worn out stock springs sat on the rubber snubbers , lakewood 90/10s .... rode suprisingly well! Engine..... boss302 pan and windage tray, 30 over cast flat top 302, try y headers, Cast iron 4 barrel intake , 600 vac secondary holley, home ported 302 heads , stock valves, msd ign, and a small 90 shot of nitrous. Best 60 ft 1.69 . That was driving it out the gate on the bottle and no lift shifts. This was the only pass that the nitrous kindof worked right on. The best pass on the bottle was only 4.5 mph faster than without the bottle...forgot about the cam it was a wieand cam. They had two cams . Ihad the milder of the two( 204 at 50 447 lift. When I get some more time I will tell some ofthe other combos I have tryed. Mark Ps 2 tenths slower 60 ft witout the bottle

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I think the Cobras do better mainly because of the front/rear weight bias as compared to the Mustangs on street tires...The Cobras are probably in 45/55 front/rear percentages as the Mustangs are closer to 60/40 fornt/rear,so we have a lot more weight over the front end than they do hurting rear traction...
Never ran slicks,but I'm thinking they would be good for another 4 tenths or more... I ran in the "street car" classes where slicks are not allowed and really didn't want to put the extra strain on the driveline as it is basically stock.
My car probably makes 325hp on a good day,going downhill with the wind, not a lot of power there, but I could get it to the ground.More power would just make it that much harder t o get off the line,but would help on the top end.When I built it, my original plans were to show it a lot and drive it very little, that all changed after a year or two and I began driving it a lot and am happy with the combo as it has good power and I get good gas mileage,allowing me to drive it a lot...

I wouldn't mind putting on a set of slicks one time just to see what it would run........

David

[PANAVIA]

My Best Street Combination is a 1991 (F1TE) 5.0L roller block with a eagle steel 331 crank, nice pistons, I Beam rods, - and 1993 Cobra (GT40) heads, or the SVO aluminum versions -- with an E303 cam indexed 4 degrees advanced.

Roller 1.6 ( or 1.7 rockers ) top off the valvetrain, -with Carb or EFI. this with a regular steel flywheel you can jam pretty good, ---

if you feel you need a little more pop, 1.7 rockers with a F303 cam indexed at 0 ( straight up ) is the good combo.

Steve

[PANAVIA]

My Best Street Combination is a 1991 (F1TE) 5.0L roller block with a eagle steel 331 crank, nice pistons, I Beam rods, - and 1993 Cobra (GT40) heads, or the SVO aluminum versions.

-- with an E303 cam indexed 4 degrees advanced.

Roller 1.6 ( or 1.7 rockers ) top off the valvetrain, -with Carb or EFI. this with a regular steel flywheel you can jam pretty good, --- nice with the 1.6 , more rowdy idle with the 1.7's

if you feel you need a little more pop, keep the 1.7 rockers with a F303 cam indexed at 0 ( straight up ) is the good combo.

the E303 with on a 326/331 indexed as listed with a 1.6 rocker is good for 360HP. ( 322 Rear Wheel )

Steve

[MAStuart]

Steve What is the drive train? Not much loss to the rear wheels. What kind of gane for the f303. I have never tryed any of the ford racings roller cams. Mark