Oil temp gauge installed

[Texasdoc]

Just installed some new SpeedHut gauges. A new gauge I now have is oil temp. It is plugged into the side port on the Canton pan. I've noticed that when I'm driving the oil temp gauge is pegged cold, but when I stop, it will climb up to the correct temp. I'm thinking that since the pan is down in the air steam, the sensor is getting cooled by the passing air. Do I just need to insulate the sensor? Wrap it with heat shielding?

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Just installed some new SpeedHut gauges. A new gauge I now have is oil temp. It is plugged into the side port on the Canton pan. I've noticed that when I'm driving the oil temp gauge is pegged cold, but when I stop, it will climb up to the correct temp. I'm thinking that since the pan is down in the air steam, the sensor is getting cooled by the passing air. Do I just need to insulate the sensor? Wrap it with heat shielding?

Your situation seems baffling to me.

I have a VDO temp gauge and sensor, and my readings don't vary whether I'm driving or stopped. As far as I know, the portion of the sender that actually takes the reading is inside the oil pan and not exposed to air flow.

Looking at the SpeedHut sender it looks like it would be totally immersed as well:



I suspect there's something else going on. Does the wire have a solid connection to the sender? Could it be moving around or grounding against something while the vehicle is in motion, but not when stopped? Looking at the impedance / temperature chart, zero impedance (e.g. grounded) would display cold on the gauge.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Your situation seems baffling to me.

I have a VDO temp gauge and sensor, and my readings don't vary whether I'm driving or stopped. As far as I know, the portion of the sender that actually takes the reading is inside the oil pan and not exposed to air flow.

Looking at the SpeedHut sender it looks like it would be totally immersed as well:



I suspect there's something else going on. Does the wire have a solid connection to the sender? Could it be moving around or grounding against something while the vehicle is in motion, but not when stopped? Looking at the impedance / temperature chart, zero impedance (e.g. grounded) would display cold on the gauge.

Looking at the impedance / temperature chart, zero impedance (e.g. grounded) would display HOT on the gauge.

Open circuit, (high resistance) on the sender wire would display COLD.

Gary

[Texasdoc]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Looking at the impedance / temperature chart, zero impedance (e.g. grounded) would display HOT on the gauge.

Open circuit, (high resistance) on the sender wire would display COLD.

Gary

Right. I don't think it is electrical at this point. I'm pretty sure I am just too low on the oil level. When moving (RPM above idle) my HV oil pump pushes enough oil to the top of the motor so the sensor is uncovered. Therefore I am reading the temp of the air in the oil pan. When stopped at an idle, enough oil comes back down into the pan to cover the sensor so it goes back up on the gauge. I'm going to put more oil in to see how that works. If it still isn't working well, I'll start chasing electrical gremlins. It is pretty much plug and play. Each end of the supplied cable has push and click connectors.

I spoke to Canton. They said this is an 8 qt pan. Minus what would go in the filter.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Right. I don't think it is electrical at this point. I'm pretty sure I am just too low on the oil level. When moving (RPM above idle) my HV oil pump pushes enough oil to the top of the motor so the sensor is uncovered. Therefore I am reading the temp of the air in the oil pan. When stopped at an idle, enough oil comes back down into the pan to cover the sensor so it goes back up on the gauge. I'm going to put more oil in to see how that works. If it still isn't working well, I'll start chasing electrical gremlins. It is pretty much plug and play. Each end of the supplied cable has push and click connectors.

I spoke to Canton. They said this is an 8 qt pan. Minus what would go in the filter.

So, I take it then that 'system capacity' is 8 quarts - ~7 in the pan and the rest in the filter. You were running 2 quarts under that, so hopefully this solves the problem and gets the gauge reading as it should.

[EM-0785]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Just installed some new SpeedHut gauges. A new gauge I now have is oil temp. It is plugged into the side port on the Canton pan. I've noticed that when I'm driving the oil temp gauge is pegged cold, but when I stop, it will climb up to the correct temp. I'm thinking that since the pan is down in the air steam, the sensor is getting cooled by the passing air. Do I just need to insulate the sensor? Wrap it with heat shielding?

Just curious, when you are stopped and the gauge starts reading, is that only when/while the brake pedal is depressed? If so, maybe electrical wiring?

Good luck...Brent

[Grubby]

I think the sending unit is getting uncovered during the run. There is quite a bit of oil circulating when an engine is running. The oil level in the pan drops.

Is there a place to mount it lower on the pan?

John

[RACERAL]

I have a FE and mine rarely show anything. Unless it's 100 out side and I'm dogging it

[mln385]

Make sure the sender reaches the oil, mine did that years ago and the builder had the sender to far back in the reducers for it to get in the oil bath.

[Texasdoc]

Originally Posted by mln385

Make sure the sender reaches the oil, mine did that years ago and the builder had the sender to far back in the reducers for it to get in the oil bath.

Ding, Ding, Ding !!! I think we have a winner!

Was at the track this week and thought the increased oil was the fix. At the track the temp would show as it should. But when I drove around town it went back down to "cold".

Today I took the sensor out and tested it in water. It worked normally. I tested the gauge with resistors and it worked as well.

When I originally installed the sensor (1/8 NPT) into the pan (1/2 NPT) the hardware store didn't have the correct adapter. I had to use two different adapters to get it to fit. This pulled the sensor tip out of the oil bath. It was still covered with oil but wasn't getting much circulation. I do think the air flow around the pan was cooling the sensor as well.

I replaced the stacked adapters with the correct one and the sensor tip is now definitely in the bulk of the oil. I'm hoping this will work.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Just installed some new SpeedHut gauges. A new gauge I now have is oil temp. It is plugged into the side port on the Canton pan. I've noticed that when I'm driving the oil temp gauge is pegged cold, but when I stop, it will climb up to the correct temp. I'm thinking that since the pan is down in the air steam, the sensor is getting cooled by the passing air. Do I just need to insulate the sensor? Wrap it with heat shielding?

Which Canton pan are you using? This is Canton's 15-680 9 quart pan, and the sender bung is much higher than the bung on my pan. I suppose it could become exposed if the oil level wasn't high enough and oil wasn't draining back fast enough.



https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-race-pan.html


Here's my pan, you can see the sender bung low on the front driver's side:

https://goo.gl/photos/LV32eSaJ4uwCyRWY9

[Texasdoc]

My plan looks almost exactly like that one but it is gold-ish in color and is only advertised as a 7 qt pan.Model 15-680s. 6 qts almost comes up to the top of the kick out. Electrical seems good. No change with brake application.

My sender looks similar to that one but is not as long and has a 1/4 to 3/8 npt adapter. So it is not as deep into the oil. The bung is half way up the side of the pan as seen in the above picture. I do have a high volume pump too.

So maybe the sensor is coming uncovered when driving. How high is the oil supposed to be on the pan itself? How far down from the block - center of the rotating crank? I put 6 qts of oil in it and marked the dipstick before installing the pan.

[cycleguy55]

15-680s is listed on Canton's site as "8 qt System Capacity" - if you're filling it with 6 quarts you're low by 2 quarts. I'd add a couple of quarts and test it again - that may make quite a difference.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-race-pan.html

[Texasdoc]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

15-680s is listed on Canton's site as "8 qt System Capacity" - if you're filling it with 6 quarts you're low by 2 quarts. I'd add a couple of quarts and test it again - that may make quite a difference.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-race-pan.html

It is weird, when I bought it, Canton advertised it as a 7 qt pan. Summit still says 7 qts. On that page you linked, Canton says 9 qts in one place and 8 qts in another. I don't know what they want.

How far down should the oil be when the motor is not running? If I can get a measurement from a known point (block pan rails or bottom of the timing cover) I can fill it to spec, then reset my oil fill mark on the dipstick.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

It is weird, when I bought it, Canton advertised it as a 7 qt pan. Summit still says 7 qts. On that page you linked, Canton says 9 qts in one place and 8 qts in another. I don't know what they want.

How far down should the oil be when the motor is not running? If I can get a measurement from a known point (block pan rails or bottom of the timing cover) I can fill it to spec, then reset my oil fill mark on the dipstick.

Yes, I see the two conflicting references on system capacity. At the very least you could start with an additional quart, but I'd be inclined to reach out directly to Canton and get the answer. Phone # 203-481-9460

This is their email contact form: https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/contact-us/

Q: How far down should the oil be when the motor is not running?
A: IMO probably as high as possible, as long as the oil level clears the counterweights. I don't know what that means in terms of quarts or even inches on your dipstick - so you may be on your own there.

What I did on mine was fill it to the level of the crank scraper before I installed it, then measure the volume. After installation I added that amount of oil, inserted the dipstick and marked the level of oil. I know some people add an extra quart for a running engine, but mine already holds enough oil (about 13 litres system capacity) so I'm not worried about it.

[Grubby]

Texasdoc,

Your description of how determine oil level sounds correct.

Look at the pan makers web sight and determine capacity, ie 7 quarts. Then change oil and add the amount of oil, ie 7 quarts. Don't start the engine. Mark the dipstick.

Then start it and add enough oil to make up for oil filter and oil cooler capacity, so that the oil level comes to the mark you made on the dip stick.

With the level determined properly, you shouldn't have a problem uncovering the temp sender.

John

[Horseracejudge]

Hi Texasdoc,

I'm using a Canton 13-600 289-302 Drag Race Eliminator double hump rear sump pan. It had to look like the stock pan for certain class racing. My oil temp is Stewart Warner. My sender is in the remote mount oil filter port. Temp is accurate and very consistent with driving conditions. If you are using a remote mount oil filter set up mount it there. Some remote mounts have a spot to drill tap and thread and some come with ports already tapped and threaded. I'm using an AN fitting coupler that is tapped for a sender in my braided line connection to the remote filter. Nick

[Texasdoc]

No oil cooler. I will see if I can figure out how far the crank counter-weights go into the pan and compare the oil level. I'll just add a quart or two of oil and see what the temp sensor does. I'll give Canton a call this week as well.

I'd still like to know how much distance there is between a stock crank and the oil level set by Ford. I may just do the math/geometry - figure out how much oil so it is just short of the crank. With the high volume pump, it will probably lower the level pretty quickly once the motor starts.

If I am doing the math right, the stroke is 4”, the rod bearings are 2.3”, so the largest radius of the crank would be 3.3”. Adding a fudge factor, I could set the level at 3.5-4 inches below the crank center line about be at about the max oil level.

[tortuga]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

No oil cooler. I will see if I can figure out how far the crank counter-weights go into the pan and compare the oil level. I'll just add a quart or two of oil and see what the temp sensor does. I'll give Canton a call this week as well.

I'd still like to know how much distance there is between a stock crank and the oil level set by Ford. I may just do the math/geometry - figure out how much oil so it is just short of the crank. With the high volume pump, it will probably lower the level pretty quickly once the motor starts.

If I am doing the math right, the stroke is 4”, the rod bearings are 2.3”, so the largest radius of the crank would be 3.3”. Adding a fudge factor, I could set the level at 3.5-4 inches below the crank center line about be at about the max oil level.

When you are checking your oil, engine off with the dipstick almost your entire oil system apart from the filter and little pools here and there will be in the pan. The entire volume of the box at the bottom is 8.7 qts to the top., deduduct about 0.7 qts for the filter and there is an 8 qt fill, don’t think you want it to the top though, I run mine at 7 qts once it has filled the filter and cooler and hoses: 7 qts shutoff in the pan...

[Texasdoc]

I measured my pan, just to be sure the math works. I do have a 12 x 4 x 10.5 inch sump/kick out on this pan. That confirms it is a 15-680s pan. Mine does have the scraper as seen in the pictures but does not have the windage tray.

12 x 4 x 10.5 inches translates to about 8.7 quarts. Subtract internal edge of the sump instead of the outside, plus volume taken up by the pickup and oil baffles, I think we are somewhere in the 8.3-8.5 quart range to fill the sump.

Again, the crank stroke is 4 inches, so the throw is 2. The journals are 2.3 (ish), then add a little since the counter weights are a bit longer. I’m guessing the max radius of the crank is around 3.5 inches. Since the pan is 8 inches tall, 4 inches from the block rail (and crank centerline) to the sump, filling the pan to the top of the sump (4 inch) leaves about 1/2 inch to the crank.

I’m going to use 8.5 qts as a max fill. Since I have 6 qts in there now, I’ll add 1.5 more qts and mark the dipstick “fill” mark - indicating a quart low. Then add another quart (totalling 8.5 qts) and mark a “full” mark on the dipstick.

Thoughts? I’ll still call Canton to get their input, but unless someone here has any “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard” comments, I’ll proceed with this plan.