Hard starting when Hot

joe garland · #1 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 01:53 PM

351W-- Stock compression, timing correct, high torque late model Ford starter, 0 size battery cables.

Cranks great when cold. When motor reaches operating temp: oil and water 160 deg. coolant, 120 deg. oil. Shut motor off and it cranks like a tired 6 volt system. Wait 30 min. and motor will crank. HELP!

Joe G.

Roscoe · #2 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 02:11 PM

Joe,

Have you thought of putting a start retard on the engine?

Roscoe

mr0077 · #3 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 02:19 PM

Joe, I'm betting it's the starter...but check the cables first (unless you can borrow a replacement starter for a trial) by doing this:
get some good jumper cables, recreate the condition at your garage, and hook up one jumper cable from battery negative post to engine block...try it; if no change, try putting on a cable from the positive battery post to the starter (or maybe the solenoid if it is firewall mounted), try that; if no change, put on both cables; no change, it is almost certainly the starter...
Good luck, keep us posted.

Tongue Pirate · #4 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 02:24 PM

Is the starter close to the exhaust? If so put a heat shield on the starter! This is a common problem with chevy's running headers! Could happen to ford too!

Doug Axelrod · #5 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 02:34 PM

Could very well be the starter heat saturating. When this happens, it feels like the timing is off, but it's not.

This happened to me at VIR after trying to restart right after a hard run. With cooling, it started fine.

The options are a larger starter or a heat shield. I had one fabricated by Eric at Competition Motorsports in Ross, OH (he does kevlar heat shielding "diapers" for Indy cars!) and we'll see how it does at the track in the Spring. Reasonable, too.

So, easiest fix is a shield to see if this fixes it.

Mr.Fixit · #6 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 02:37 PM

HOT START

Remove coil wire and crank engine. If this helps, you have too much initial spark advance.

Then you can try swapping starters. You may need to try several to get one with the grunt.

This is a common problem on small block cobras. It has several causes however. It is more common on motors with more than 10:1 compression. Check your ground cables as well. Do a load test on the battery if you can.

427Aggie · #7 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 02:58 PM

Joe,,

Had a friend with a truck that had the same problem the starter solinoid was getting too hot and wouldn't start the truck. The bet is the started or the solinoid(sp).

Matt

jhaynie · #8 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 05:22 PM

My 289 Unique with a 351 did the same thing. Bad wiring connection at starter. Start there, cheap fix.

DAVID GAGNARD · #9 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 06:30 PM

Joe;

Had the same problem with my 351-W in my 65 Fastback....Went thru three starters with same result.....Put a heat wrap from Summit ($19.95 I think) around the starter and have not had a problem in a year....My headers wrap around the starter and it was getting heat soaked....The starter would last about six months to a year,good thing I had lifetime warranty from Auto-Zone on those starters..............

David

Dwight · #10 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 06:56 PM

JOE,

THE COACH AND I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM WITH OUR 5.0 EFI. WE TRIED EVERYTHING AND LAST WEEK BOUGHT 2 FORD MINI STARTERS FOR OUR LOCAL HOME OWNED PARTS STORE. $100 PLUS TAX AND CORE. SOLVED THE HOT START PROBLEM! THIS IS A STARTER THAT IS USED ON A 1992 - 93 V-8 MUSTANG AND OLDER 3.0 & 3.8 V-6s. PART # M-11000-A50. WEIGHTS 7.5 LBS. 4.9 LBS LESS THAN OE STARTER. IT IS A HIGH TORQUE PERMANENT MAGNET UNIT. IT IS 1.5" SMALLER IN DIAMETER, ALLOWING MORE ROOM FOR HEADERS. YOU WILL HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR WIRING A LITTLE. YOU CAN RUN A 12 OR 14 GA. WIRE FROM YOUR ING. SWITCH TO THE INTEGRAL SOLENOID WHICH IN ON THE STARTER AND A CABLE FROM THE BATTERY TO THE STARTER. IF YOUR STARTER IS NOW FED FROM THE STARTER MOTOR RELAY ON YOUR FIREWALL, YOU CAN ADD A NUMBER 12 GA. WIRE FROM THE SAME SIDE OF THE RELAY AS THE STARTER CABLE AND RUN IT TO THE SOLENOID. THE ING. SWITCH PULLS IN THE RELAY WHICH POWERS BOTH THE SOLENOID AND THE STARTER. BOTH WAYS WILL WORK.

SEE YOU IN OHIO IN JUNE!

joe garland · #11 (**permalink**) 01-08-2003, 04:24 AM

Thanks to all of you. I will let you know what the cure finally turned out to be.

You guys are the best,

Joe G.

frankym · #12 (**permalink**) 01-08-2003, 08:24 AM

I also had a similar problem on my big block. I rebuilt the starter, same problem existed. I put the heat shield wrap from jegs or summit and it helped a lot. You mentioned that the timing is right, but your pointer may be off and you're still a little advanced. Secondly, and what ultimately proved to make the biggest difference, I installed a new die hard gold batter, i think it had 100 cold cranking amps. This was the best one they made at the time. Since most of us always assume we have enough juice because the car always starts when cold, you need those cold cranking amps to overcome some of the resistance from the hot engine. If your battery is a no name especially, or if you aren't sure the age or the specs of the battery, get yourself a new top shelf battery from sears, costs like a 100 bucks and is always good insurance.

luc · #13 (**permalink**) 01-08-2003, 08:28 AM

Joe,
I have the same problem with my 351W (in Shell Valley Cobra)!
Everytime I stop the car after a ride, I have to wait at least 10 minutes before the engine starts again!
Advance, cables, ground and all the rest is OK.
I will try to put a heat shield as many guys advise!

Luc

speed220mph · #14 (**permalink**) 01-08-2003, 10:17 AM

This is a classic problem of the starter-motor armature dragging against the field due to overheating. Shielding that provides an air gap between the starter motor of at least 1/2 inch and the heat source is the most economical and effective solution to this problem.

Either buy a heat shield or fabricate one from thin aluminum or steel sheet. Provide a mounting tab to install under one of the starter mounting bolts at the gear end. At the other end, make a tab that will attach to one of the small long bolts at the brush end of the starter or a standoff that can be secured to the starter housing with a large hose clamp.

Widowmaker · #15 (**permalink**) 01-14-2003, 08:07 PM

I had the same problem with my 393 inch Windsor, but with the installation of a Powermaster starter and an Optima red battery, the problem went away for good.

PNJSNAK · #16 (**permalink**) 01-25-2003, 08:39 AM

Joe: had the same problem, did all the above, bought the heat wrap, checked the ground cables, even added a second. Same size wire #2 from battery to solenoid to starter, had starter checked everything fine. Before I spent the $100 + dollars on a mini starter, I talked with a bunch of engine builders. I retarded the distributor timing a couple of degrees. NO MORE PROBLEM. Don't see any change in performance, besides I don't race the car or drag race with it. Just like to cruise and occasionally get on it for the adrenaline charge we all need and get with these cars.
Good luck.
Jim

Don · #17 (**permalink**) 02-01-2003, 10:39 AM

Had the same problem. If the no cost or low cost fixes do not work, I installed the following and the problem went away:

MSD 8584 Distributor, $190 from Summit
SUM 82005 Hi-torque starter, $160 from summit

Since both were installed at the same time, not sure what contributed to the fix. The stock starter was bench checked as OK. MSD Distributor allows a great deal of flexibility in the timing and advance, check their web site.