What cam? What heads? What manifold?

[JustOne]

The cam is a custom grind from Pacific Racing, they own Ford Performance solutions (They built the DART based long block for our turbo motor last year). The head is based on a casting of a CNC ported Victor Jr but with 2.08 intake and 1.62 exh valves. The flow numbers I gave were for the 2.05 version that is CNC ported, which should be close to the 2.08 version. The carb is a Mighty Demon 850 and the intake is a Super Victor Jr. The rockers are 1.7 ratio with titanium parts to keep the hyraulic lifters from floating.
Thanks.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

[Dangerous Doug]

Sounds like I've got some homework to do before I start buying parts...

Read about "beehive" valve springs last night in Popular Hot Rodding. Comp Cams makes them. I found them in Summit Racing for Chevy, but nothing for small Fords. The report was that it increased the RPM range by about 1300 rpm's over the typically spec'd springs, taking the rev limit up to 7000 rpm. Anyone have experience with these?

One thing on my engine build I need to figure out is if I'm going to replace the existing forged TRW 12.5:1's or keep them. This will determine what heads I buy. I'm trying to get as much hp for the $, so I'm inclined to keep them. But, admittedly, it seems silly to spend $1200 on heads to compensate for the pistons that I could replace for $300-$400.

Question: If the pistons are in good shape, why would I replace them (other than the obvious "you have to buy a specific head for them" answer)? Breakage? New technology?

Blykins: thanks for the Desktop Dyno numbers. Never heard of this application before, so I'll have to look it up. Looks like hitting 400 is a distinct possibility, but I won't hit it by chance---it will have to be by design.

DD

[Tongue Pirate]

The pistons seem awfull big for street if that is what you have in mind. Something a little mellower may help in your search for useable fuel. A good cam is where I would focus for my power.

[blykins]

No problem DD.

If the pistons are used, there could be problems with them. The piston skirts wear....the wrist pin bores wear. Both of these areas could you give you slop in the bore.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
I would start with a fresh rotating assembly. The old crank/rod stuff was way heavier than the '82 and up 5 liter stuff,this alone revs faster and makes more power. You need new pistons anyway,there is no way to get 10:1 out of your 12:1 pistons.
The best way to get your 400 hp out of a small block is with a 347 stroker kit,less radical cam also.
Good Luck,
Perry.

[Excaliber]

I hated to replace my 12.5 to 1 pistons, but could not find any other reasonable way to reduce my compression. One thing I seriously considered was a very thick head gasket. They are available with thickness of over .100 I did the math, it would have worked.

But I also wanted to change my deck height, compression height of the piston to introduce "quench", which the original FE's never had.

About $900 bucks for the new pistons, I bit down hard on the bullet and went for it...

[JustOne]

I tried to change my heads to the Gliden Victor after the pistons were made and the compression would have gone from 11.25 to 12.5. The difference is that the Vic jr. has a 70cc chamber and the Gliden has a 60cc chamber. So, you may be able to get down to 11:.25 or 11:1.

[Dangerous Doug]

The reason I'm thinking GT-40 heads is the 64cc chamber---this will effectively bring my compression ratio down to 10.5:1 with these TRW "12.5:1" pistons which should yield a "pump gas" fuel requirement.

Slick: $900 for new pistons? Another reason to not go BB FE... By the way, you still owe me a ride in that thing.

Blykins: I was going to call Ford Racing Tech Support to see if I can get actual flow numbers for the "Y" and "X" GT-40 heads.

Anybody try those Comp Cams "beehive" valve springs? I'm curious...

DD

[blykins]

I paid $500 for my pistons....custom made to my specs....another $100 for the rings.

That's the only way to go.....it will eliminate the constant variable of having to use 64cc heads.....this way you can pick anything you want to....

[JustOne]

DD,
Go back an look at the post of mine on the first page, the flow numbers for all of the 40 and N series heads are there along with a lot of other heads. The flow data there was done for a head shootout on I belive Westech's flow bench. Anyway, all of those heads were flowed on the same day to get an accurate reading.
What size chamber do you have now? Going up 10cc will only lower your compression about 1.2- 1.5, but you may be able to shave the domes off. If the pistons are used I would scrap them since you can get custom forged pistons for $500.
If you are only looking for a head with 64cc or larger chambers there are many around that are in that range that flow better than the GT40 series head. Remember that the GT40 heads are designed to meet current emission standards and don't flow well on the exhaust side because the have the EGR bumps in them, which is the first thing we always took out to get better flow. You are building a non emissions compliant motor, so don't restrict your search for heads to pieces designed to meet emissions. Remeber your heads cam and intake dictate your HP with the cam and heads being the heart of the combo. Good luck with your build, you picked a great car and having the 289 in there will be cool!

[niles]

Doug;
Junk the pistons and do it right.


A super article which test all the head and dynos them with all the build particulars is here; http://airflowresearch.com/articles.../Part2/A-P1.htm

Bottom line the AFR/Brodix/ holley heads are up almost 100 hp over stock and about 70hp up over the Gt40 heads
gn

[Dangerous Doug]

Justone: I took a look at the flow data from your earlier posting, and then created an Excel file with the data that allowed me to compare different heads. You are right: the GT-40 heads fall off and go flat in exhaust flow at 0.3" lift. So, I'm taking them off the list.

AFR, Trick Flow, and Blue Thunder all seem to rate pretty high, but I have my doubts about using these on a street/track Cobra, as opposed to a track only Cobra.

I'm looking for a good head for street driving and road racing (Laguna Seca is a mere 40 minute drive away).

Any thoughts?

[Rickd]

Doug. There are a lot of Cobra owners out there using AFR 165's and Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads on 289/302 street / track cars. These, without having real aggressive cams, will provide in the neighborhood of 340-360 HP. I'm putting Trick Flows on my 302 in a couple of weeks, as soon as my new head gaskets arrive. Rick

[Rickd]

Doug, didn't mention, my car is primarily a highway cruiser, with some track time planned if / when I can get up to Gainesville FL. My cam is not a big one, 221 duration @ .050 and .500 lift., and 10 degrees lobe separation. It will have a little lope to it but should be highly driveable. Just take it easy on the gas, and you've got power there to go to the track. Rick

[Excaliber]

What really impressed me with the AFR heads was the high flow at low valve lift. Much higher than just about anything else. How they do that? Miracle heads I tell you!

[JustOne]

DD,
The Blue Thunder heads you see there are closer to a Yates style head and they are for racing only. A couple of the TFS heads you see are ported by TEA, and you can see the difference vs. the stock TFS head. AFR is different than othe manufacturers because all of their heads come fully CNC ported, which makes a huge difference. For example, my Avenger heads (Edlebrock Vic.jr) now flow the same as an AFR 225. You see a lot of people go with the AFR because they are an excellent value when you compare their price to a stage III race head.
If I were in your shoes today I would build an AFR based motor. There have been so many articles on which combinations work, and most of them are in the articles section on the airflowresearch web page. So just copy one of those combos and go from there or call Ford Performance Solution, Panhandle or Keith Craft. Don't just go to you local machine shop because these guys have most likely not dynoed combos that they know work.
My car was also built for road racing and auto cross, so I had to go with a more radical custom cam to move the powerband up in the RPM range. The problem then becomes idle, which we hope to have solved with a larger lobe seperation on the cam. My advise is to get a custom cam ground. You should be able to get 400 - 425 HP and still have a nice street car if you go with an AFR, Edlebrock, Canfield, TFS, or Brodix head. My engine was built by Ford Performance Solutions F-P-S.com in CA. Troy at FPS found me a 69W block and spent a lot of time with me going over combos for the motor, which is the second one he has done for me, and he puts out a good product at a very reasonable price.
As mentioned earlier I would purchase the carb from Don Gould and let him know what your combination will be. He will also put road race floats in your carb if you tell him you want to use it for track days.
Good luck searching for your combination, this is one of the really fun parts of the build. Call as many builders as you can to get different opinions, because just like kit builders they all have their own way of doing things.

[Dangerous Doug]

Someone stated a few postings back that he thought the AFR heads required a different header than offered by ERA. Anyone know for sure?

The AFR 165 heads use Felpro 1415, which I think is a standard small block Ford gasket, 1.25" x 1.48".

Just bought a copy of the Mr. Gasket Desktop Dyno 2000 to putz around with a few designs. Seemed like a good idea to try some computer modelling.

Still nobody with experience with "bee hive" valve springs?

DD

[Rickd]

Doug. I was researching heads, just like you. I have a Unique Motorcars 289 FIA with a 302. I was told by the Unique factory that I would have to modify the exhaust or the headers in order to instally the AFR's, and they recommended I go with either Trick Flow or Edelbrock heads.

It turns out they were partially correct. If you try to install the larger (I believe they are 205's) AFR's you need to modify the header or exhaust, however the 165's are 100% just "bolt em on". I found out too late or I was ordering the AFR's. I ordered a set of Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads from Panhandle Performance. They buy the casting, use better valves than the stock ones (Ferrea Racing Valves), install the proper springs for my roller cam (an upgrade on both Trick Flow and AFR heads), and do some bowl polishing, and they provide a flow chart (they call this their Stage I head).

The Trick Flows I have are beautiful, and they flow very well at all points of lift up to .500, which is my max cam lift. You can definitely install the AFR 165's, and if you are doing a new build, there will be no problem.

My TF's flow .10 lift 64 / 54 (intake / exhaust): .20 lift 141 / 109; .30 lift 195 / 147; .40 lift 238 / 174; and .50 lift 254 / 193. Can't wait to get them installed! Have fun!! Rick

[Rickd]

Doug, another comment on the Felpro gaskets. Don Gould the Demon carb maestro in Oregon, recommended that I go with a higher quality gasket that has the advantage of being a lot thinner than the standar Felpro and will not get blown out. They are used by many real high power motors, and are about 20 thousandths thinner than the felpro. For me this is an advantage as it will help me pick up a little compression. Aluminum heads burn cooler and you can normally run a point higher compression than the same motor with iron heads. The 20 thousandths is equivalent to milling the heads to decrease the size of the combustion chamber. Something else to file away in your mind as a variable that can be addressed. If you're going with an ERA (an outstanding car I might add .. congratulations), you might consider a motor built by Joe Lapine, pretty close to ERA. Rick

[JustOne]

Sorry Imissed your question on the beehive springs. They do work because they are a little lighter, with the right parts you can run 7000rpm on a hydraulic motor. You will also need titanium keepers and the crane retrofit hyd. roller lifters. The lifters are a little pricey, I think I paid close to $500 for them.
If you go with a solid flat tappet cam you can run the Schubeck lifters which are in the neighborhood of $600, but well worth it considering no cam break in. With this setup you can spin the motor in the 8k range, as long as you don't mind adjusting the valves.
Out of the AFR heads I would step up to the 185 if you are going to rev the motor past 5800rpm.
First decide what you want to do with the motor, and where in the rpm range you want to make power. From following Rick's post on the UniqueCobra web site you could tell that he knew exactly what he wanted, and made a very wise decision getting the TFS heads for his application. He can also have them worked more if he would like down the road and support even more power.