Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
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Why isn't the 351C more popular in Cobras?
I just bought a Contemporary Classic Cobra with a 351C. The car is in rough shape and I'm just starting a complete restoration of it. I've been starting to think about what engine will end up in it and the more research I do the more clear it becomes that the 351C is an almost perfect engine for the Cobra. It has all the size and weight benefits of the 351W/302 engines, with the power potential of the FE's due to the Boss type canted valve Big Block style heads. It's not difficult nor terribly expensive to stroke a 351C to 408 cu. in. , and a power output of 650+ HP is not terribly difficult nor uncommon. It can be done on pump gas easily without crazy mods or a difficult to live with engine. While they're not as common as Windsor based engines, they're certainly not rare nor difficult to find. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I'm not trying to flame the silly small block / big block wars. It's just seems that the Cleveland is essentially the best of both worlds. The block is undoubtedly a small block, while the canted valve huge port heads are doubtlessly big block heads. If originality is your thing, there's no substitute for an FE, hands down. For cost effective power, light weight and the combined benefits of both, the Cleveland seems unbeatable. Ideas, folks?
I recall when the 351W came out it was mostly snickerd at and not taken seriously. If you wanted real power, the 351C was clearly the best choice.
So whats changed? It took YEARS for research and development to become more common place for the 351W to get decent power out of it at a reasonable cost. Whereas the 351C faded away, without any real world engine developement work done (as with the W engines).
Today it's just easier, cheaper to build a W to respectable levels than it is to build a C. I have GREAT respect for the Clevland and am always pleasently surprised when I see one. Go for it!
Cobra Make, Engine: Coupe,Blue w/white stripes SB; Roadster, Blue w/white stripes BB w/2-4s; SPF installer/Hot Rod-Custom Car builder
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As Excalibur said, it is basically not supported by the aftermarket as the W is. It isn't as easy to get headers and then the choice of heads is limited and expensive. I enjoy the engines and use them in my Deuce as well as some of my Mustangs. But I have a collection of parts that I've gathered up since the early 70s.
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X #99
If you not going racing than the Cleveland is a good choice. Enough power for the street and looks good sitting in a Cobra.
Roger,
Why "If you're not going racing"? I guess that's what I don't get. Obviously I'm missing something. Is it just the cost and availability of parts? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I can go out and get a set of extreme Windsor heads for "X" amount of dollars. At the end of the day I can get heads of equal or less cost mid level heads for the Cleveland, and they'll flow as much and probably more than the Windsor heads. Given that any engine is a glorified air pump, with more air in and more air out equaling more power, I doubt that without spending exorbitant amounts of money you'll find Windsor heads that will flow even what a mid level set of Cleveland heads will flow. I'm not trying to belabor the point here. I just can't see Windsors putting out what an equally prepped Cleveland can. What am I missing?
Cobra Make, Engine: 427 Cobra re-creation based on Kirkham aluminum body and chassis, Original 1965 Ford 427 Side Oiler and Ford Toploader transmission
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey
Roger,
Why "If you're not going racing"? I guess that's what I don't get. Obviously I'm missing something. Is it just the cost and availability of parts? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I can go out and get a set of extreme Windsor heads for "X" amount of dollars. At the end of the day I can get heads of equal or less cost mid level heads for the Cleveland, and they'll flow as much and probably more than the Windsor heads. Given that any engine is a glorified air pump, with more air in and more air out equaling more power, I doubt that without spending exorbitant amounts of money you'll find Windsor heads that will flow even what a mid level set of Cleveland heads will flow. I'm not trying to belabor the point here. I just can't see Windsors putting out what an equally prepped Cleveland can. What am I missing?
The 351 Cleveland is not a race motor. It is a great motor but if you are going to do significant racing where you are at high revs for extended periods you will run into trouble. I used to own a race prepared Pantera that had a 351 Cleveland. It was a wonderful motor for track performance but really needed a very large oil pan in order to sustain extended periods on the track. What you will run into is that with sustained periods of high RPMs you will starve the bottom half of the motor and throw a rod through the block. Bottom line, great motor, great power potential, not meant for road racing.
By the way, for a 427 Cobra the obvious choice might be this engine called the Ford 427 Side Oiler.
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richsd
The 351 Cleveland is not a race motor. It is a great motor but if you are going to do significant racing where you are at high revs for extended periods you will run into trouble. I used to own a race prepared Pantera that had a 351 Cleveland. It was a wonderful motor for track performance but really needed a very large oil pan in order to sustain extended periods on the track. What you will run into is that with sustained periods of high RPMs you will starve the bottom half of the motor and throw a rod through the block. Bottom line, great motor, great power potential, not meant for road racing.
By the way, for a 427 Cobra the obvious choice might be this engine called the Ford 427 Side Oiler.
Isn't this the problem that the very simple restrictor kit solves?
The 400 C motor was one of a couple that FoMoCo gave to PDL to repower the transporter with if my memory serves me. Dont happen to know if that car is still around do you?
Funny how storys get around, Last time I spoke with a US based engine builder whos opinion I respect it was the Ford/SVO stuff that had distortion/machining issues! Dart was deemed to be one of the better products.
On the valve springs , yes visual and look real hard- inner springs/dampers in particular along with the whole upper head area for any small pieces that may have broken off. When you set the lash the ends of the stems should have a definite mark where the rocker roller tip runs or perhaps a couple when the valve has rotated slightly. If there is no definite wear pattern it means that your valve spring is not correct for the application and allowing the valve to rotate in the guide which means the keepers/retainers are coming loose at some point in the cycle. This applys only to race type setups,not road going applications where some valve rotation is desirable.
Cobra Make, Engine: Waiting to Order a BDR, engine to be a SA C408. TKO to hook it up.
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I think the windsor may be a little better in the bottom half of the rev range but when the C gets on its cam and starts to flow anyone with a windsor better hold onto their doorhandles.
I heard that a C can swallow a tennis ball while a W chokes on a marble.
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Pull a gear .... drop the hammer .... and enjoy the Drive !!
I've been studying engines too (I am still a few years out from beginning a build) and I have to say, the 351C is really sounding interesting. I respect the 351W and all it has to offer, but I have been thinking in the back of my mind that if I ever have to actually deny having a 427 or 428 then it would be more cool to be able to say I have a 351 Cleveland rather than a 351 Windsor. I have NOT seen a picture of one sitting in a cobra, does anybody have this pic?
Southern Automotive has a 408 stroked 351C offered for 6900 bucks as opposed to a 408 stroked 351W at 7500 bucks. It is also claiming 30 more horses.
I'd like to see what a nice setup looks like in a car. Also, what does it sound like?
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeuroToxin
I've been studying engines too (I am still a few years out from beginning a build) and I have to say, the 351C is really sounding interesting. I respect the 351W and all it has to offer, but I have been thinking in the back of my mind that if I ever have to actually deny having a 427 or 428 then it would be more cool to be able to say I have a 351 Cleveland rather than a 351 Windsor. I have NOT seen a picture of one sitting in a cobra, does anybody have this pic?
Southern Automotive has a 408 stroked 351C offered for 6900 bucks as opposed to a 408 stroked 351W at 7500 bucks. It is also claiming 30 more horses.
I'd like to see what a nice setup looks like in a car. Also, what does it sound like?
Neuro,
Look in my gallery, there are pics from the day I brought my basket case home. The engine is was filthy, but you'll get an idea of what a dirty, poorly equipped 351C looks like sitting in a Cobra engine bay. Needless to say that it'll look MUCH different when I'm done.
Boss 351C in mine, there are pics on page 9 of my agllery.
Doug I think your car is going to be a great one when done. I like the 408ci thing, would really make it fly. I have also spoken with Nick regarding the roll bars and brake bracket. Give me a call...
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
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Hey, Jeff!
I was thinking that you'd chime in on this thread sooner or later.
If anyone wants to see what a really nice 351C looks like check out Jeff's gallery. That's a real Boss 351C in there looking back at you. I'll call you probably Wednesday - I'm in Cancun (I know - tough way to make a living) Monday and Tuesday. If you want feel free to give me a call today or tomorrow - we're not doing anything this weekend.
Roger,
Yates are not the only good Cleveland heads out there anymore. The CHI heads get rave reviews. I can get a pair fully ported with all new valves, springs, etc. for about $2500. The flow rates are phenomenal, even on the exhaust side. I can allegedly do a Cleveland 408 stroker with 600+ H.P. for just about $10K. I'm looking into it further as we speak, and if it all checks out I'll let you know what the details are. Compare the price and power to a Roush 427, and there's no comparison. Right now one of the sticking points is finding an intake that makes really good power, yet fits under the stock Cobra hood. As long as we're on the subject, and of you Cleveland guys have any ideas on that?
Last edited by 767Jockey; 02-24-2007 at 09:33 PM..
767 Jockey,
If you are looking for the best intake that probably will clear
a stock Cobra hood, look at a dual plane Blue Thunder intake.
The Aussies have been getting the most out of the Clevelands
for years because they produced the 335 series long after it
died here in 73-74. Jon Kasse won the Engine Masters with
a CHI headed Cleveland recently, and I believe they dominated
just last year. Lots of recent performance parts have been
introduced both here and from Down Under. Great potential but
stock 4V heads, if you don't know a correct combo, will yield great
top end power but suffers on the low end. But in a light car such
as a Cobra, it doesn't matter much. Or, you could build a "Clevor",
a Windsor low end with Cleveland heads, which essentially are a
bolt on. Problem is finding a suitable intake. Good luck and Clevelands
are a "dare to be different" sort of thing. Go for it!!
Bob T.
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF1715, Roush Built 434 ci Stroker, Dart Block, Ported AFR 205 Heads... 561 hp / 547 tq, Former Roush Show Car, Completed and Prepped By Olthoff Racing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey
Compare the price and power to a Roush 427, and there's no comparison. Right now one of the sticking points is finding an intake that makes really good power, yet fits under the stock Cobra hood. As long as we're on the subject, and of you Cleveland guys have any ideas on that?
I don't know if that's the case or not. Look at the components Roush is using (Dart block, AFR heads etc...) and compare that price to a 351C using the same stuff and I am sure you would be in the same ball park if not higher than the Roush mill. Stack a 2 year 24k warranty on top of that and I think the Roush motor comes out on top. 15k for a Roush 427R with a warranty is a good deal IMO.
Why isn't the 351C more popular in Cobras?
) IMO.
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