Engine Failure

[barabar]

David, With all due respect, I have to ask you---Do you think that girdle on the lower end helped?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by barabar

David, With all due respect, I have to ask you---Do you think that girdle on the lower end helped?

In this case, maybe, it probably kept the lose rod from tearing up more stuff..........otherwise, I really don't know if they do help the bottom end or not...
When I was building the motor, I asked a top engine builder what he thought of stud girdles???? he said when the bottom end goes, all they do is hold all the broken parts together down there!!!!!!!!

He also said at my power level and rpm range,he didn't think it was needed, but I put one anyway,mainly cause this was a factory 2 bolt main block...

I have the new BOSS 302 block and it's a very beefy 4 bolt main block, not gonna use a girdle on this block...The new BOSS block weighs in 30 pounds more than the factory 1971 302 block!!!!!!!! that's a lot of extra iron!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[4pipes]

The "both feet in" rule not only can save the running gear, it's main purpose is to allow the car to skid in a predictable (linear) manner so other cars can steer around it. If the wheels aren't locked up it can change directions and have an unpredictable trajectory.

[vector1]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Actually it all happened soooo fassstttt no time to crap pants,no adrenaline rush, no nothing, just act and re-act to what's happening.....Now afterwards in the paddock, I sat down and smoked a couple of cigarettes back to back and had a coke and thought "man, what a wild ride", hope I don't do that again anytime soon!!!!!!!!!!

lmao, one in each hand? that's funny

[Doug I]

The block, 4 rods and 4 pistons and you've got an interesting coffee table.

[Mark O'Neal]

What did the timing chain look like?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Doug I

The block, 4 rods and 4 pistons and you've got an interesting coffee table.

Doug;
I'd have a better chance of seeing God in my living room than seeing a coffee table made out of those parts in my living room.....remember wifey is the second meanest woman in the state of Louisiana......and she ain't too happy about the motor, still has no clue of the cost to build another motor, thankfully!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What did the timing chain look like?

Mark;

Looks fine, I didn't see anything wrong with it....after I removed the broken piston/rod combo and the damaged piston/rod combo next to it, I turned the motor over by hand a number of times checking the other piston/rods,the cam was still in the block as was the timing chain and everything worked fine.....

How the cam was not damaged is beyound me, as the flattened rod cap was stuck between the rod and the block up against the cam...I should have taken some pictures of that...

The only thing I can think of is that when things started "going south" I put the car in neutral and killed the motor very quickly... From the first "knock/noise" to shutting off the motor was maybe 5 seconds at most and at the time maybe turning 2,000 rpms when it all started. I think that may have saved some parts.....

Actually looking at the block right now, the only damage is to the bottom of the cylinder skirts on the two rear cylinders, it's looks real ugly and is, but the water jacket is not broken and nothing else I can see it broken.... I really believe the block could be re-used for a stock or mild engine,although I'll never use it again, it's gonna go to the junk man.......

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

90% of the debris in the pan was in the rear of the pan as you can see in the photo. I found the broken rod bolt head end in the pan and one big piece of piston skirt, other than that, there was little debris in the sump part of the pan.....



The stuff you see in this photo is exactly where I found it when I removed the pan and that's after a 7.5 hour drive home with the car on the trailer.

David

[Doug I]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Doug;
I'd have a better chance of seeing God in my living room than seeing a coffee table made out of those parts in my living room.....

David

Well then a coffee table in the workshop Where you can keep all the receipts - IF you keep receipts. If you don't keep em they can't be found.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Well then a coffee table in the workshop Where you can keep all the receipts - IF you keep receipts. If you don't keep em they can't be found.

Since 1990, I've worn out 3 paper shredders!!!!!!!!!
Receipts can and will be used against you in DIVORCE COURT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW: I don't drink coffee....
now bud light is a different story......

David

[Doug I]

ahhhhhhhh

Instead of a coffee table you could make a can crusher. Reassemble what's left of the engine, feed the cans down the 2 empty holes and they'll be crushed in the 6 good pots. If they can go around a big end or 2 they may even go out the exhaust port (just remove the valve if it hasn't already dropped). Now you've done away with the receipts AND the beer cans.

[Jerry Clayton]

David


couple of questions---

In your pics it looks like there is a lot of main stud threads sticking up ---is the stud too long to properly tighten the main caps???

Also---was the one bolt NOT in the rod????? The way the cap is distorter and the other bolt broken it appears that one bolt was loose and came out---your crank and bearing and rod are not blue as if you had a bearing problem--

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

David


couple of questions---

In your pics it looks like there is a lot of main stud threads sticking up ---is the stud too long to properly tighten the main caps???

Also---was the one bolt NOT in the rod????? The way the cap is distorter and the other bolt broken it appears that one bolt was loose and came out---your crank and bearing and rod are not blue as if you had a bearing problem--

Jerry;

In some of the pictures I've already removed the stud girdle, so you will see a lot of main stud sticking out.... otherwise once torqued down, abut the length of the nut was what was sticking out above the nut....

The crank/rods are not blue at all, in fact, I think the crank is o-k, but gonna have a shop check it out,all the other bearings look normal, at the time,my oil pressure was 50psi and oil temp was 170 degrees as was water temp.When things were letting go, I looked down at the oil pressure gauge first as I was reaching for the igintion switch, and it was on 50 psi, also I have a oil pressure warning light set at 20 psi and it never came on, so, oil pressure was fine....... I'll keep the crank for a "street motor"... I'm afraid it took some "hits" from the rod and may be stressed and I wouldn't trust it in a race motor, but for a mild street engine, I think it'll be just fine.....

Yes, one rod bolt was broken and the other one was in the pan as you see it, bent up and knicked in numerous places....It's any bodies guess as to what happened and how???? The "good" rod bolt could have backed out, then the other one break or the other way around, don't know how one would be able to tell the sequence.....

I know I torqued them down to the manufacters specs as you will see a dab of r ed paint on the bolts and nuts... I do that after torquing anything and everything down, it's red finger nail paint from my daughters make-up kit and it lets me know that that bolt or nut has been torqued to specs............

here's a picture with the stud girdle on and one without,showing the stud length.....once the girdle is on the studs,the top of it is well into the threads and then there's the washer under the nut, so the nut is not close to bottoming out...These studs are a little longer than normal cause they were made to add a windage tray, which is darn near impossible with a stud girdle......




David

[Jerry Clayton]

were any of the other rod bolts loose when you took them out????

That picture of the main stud length is questionable as to the ability to get proper strech/tension

And I am not reading that you used a strech gage on the rod bolts????? What did you torque them to and what did you use to lube the threads/heads???

Your damage is consistant with a bolt coming out, the cap then breaking the other bolt off---no apparent bearing/oil problem----

[RICK LAKE]

DAVID GAGNARD David I was looking at the pictures and Jerry beat me to the question about rod bolt stretching before installing, Did you do this 5 times? Other question is if you are going to road race the car, either option would help, add a 3 quart accusump to the car to help keep oil pressure up in the high "G" turns or go DRY SUMP. I don't think the spinning helped the motor, and have done the same thing as you with 100 mph spinout and trying to get both feet on the pedals. Looking at the 2 rod bolts there looks like a stretching issue. The bearing didn't weld it self to the crank, so I would also look at the oil pressure on the motor. Just because the oil pressure gauge reads 50 psi at that location doesn't mean there is 50 psi at the far end of the block. Block, crank and rods are junk IMO upper end will need to be checked for straightness of mounting surfaces, Valves being bent and heads not being cracked,( high pressure test). Gald you and the car are in 1 piece. You must be getting slow, On my spinouts, I had the time to call God, Jesus, Buda, and look out for the trees and walls. The shakes took 10 minutes to go away Worst part was I did this twice in the same corner within 30 minutes of each other. Got smart, changed underwear and called it a day.Rick L.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Jerry/Rick;

I use a torque wrench and 30wt motor oil for lube on the bolt threads/head, torqued to 60 lbs in 2 stages....all other rod bolts were still torqued down...the "good rod bolt" may have come out first, I just don't have any way to prove/disprove that, but could certainly believe it happened that way....

I've never had an oil pressure problem, I run an 8 qt. Canton Road Race pan with 4 "trap doors", windage tray in the pan and side crank scraper and with the remote filter and oil cooler/12an lines, the set-up holds a total of 10.5 quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic oil...

During the intial build, I inquired with a number of racers about an accusump and to my surprise maybe 10% use one.... I talked with a bunch of veteran vintage road racers some running Roush built motors (25 to 30k a pop) and they do not use any kind of accusump. they run the same set-up I'm running and even the same Melling oil pump...
My idle oil pressure once warmed up is about 40 psi and while on track stays between 50psi and 60psi depending on my rpms...

Since the bearing all look perfect and have since the intial build, oiling has not been an issue. The motor has been apart once after the first 2 season for rings/bearing. Then this past summer I decided to upgrade to the BOSS 302 block and removed everything from my old block and put in the new BOSS block (put in new rings/bearing again,old ones looked good) and fought a rear oil leak for most of the year, so a month or so ago, I decided to go back to my old block and took everything out of the BOSS block and re-installed in the factory block. I then ran it at least 2 hours on a run-in stand in my shop before putting it back in the car. After in the car, it had about another hour of run time before the motor broke......

The pictures may not show it, but there are plenty of threads on the main studs, the nut is nowhere close to running out of threads when torqued down.

It would be nice to positively know what failed or caused the failure, but with the running time on the motor, I'm not complaining, I figure I got my money's worth of use out of it... I ran it a lot and sometimes very hard and up til now, never missed a beat...Last summer in 100+ degree heat after a tight 20 minute race, I came in with my water temp at 190 and oil temp at 265!!!!!!!! I was in a tight race and points battle and ran as hard as I could for the full 20 minute race......

Normal race/open track conditions, my water temp never exceeds 185 and oil temp will vary from 220 to 240.....

It has been a good motor and I'm gonna build another using the very same parts and pieces (new of course),that's how much I like the performance and value of this motor.......

David

[Jerry Clayton]

Yep===I'm one of the guys who don't like accu sumps--

I don't think you had any oil problems---- By my count the rod bolts would have been torqued 5 times and I would have replaced them probably on the 2nd build--

It does sound as tho you have a good runner and have been enjoying it--good luck down the road

[RedCSX1]

David,

Wow when we were talking yesterday I did realize your motor threw a rod! I am sure you will build up the 302 real nice. Keep me posted. See the email I sent you on the 67 Mustang update.

[Rick Parker]

Try the ARP 2000 Bolt upgrade.........sorry this happened to you

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry Clayton If memory serves me right, you are running a CHEVY motor???? You have listed and LS motor to boot. This is one of the best oiling systems a motor can have. As far as an accusump it can only help the motor in in roadracing and in avoiding dry start ups of the motor. You pull higher "g's" than I do Jerry and I find it hard to believe that you think that your oil pressure gauge is giving you that correct pressure for the WHOLE motor. 80% of the time I have seen and repaired LS1,LS2, and now the LS6 motor with guys who autocross and roadrace in there ZO6 vettes. Even with the dry sump setup they are killing the #7 & #8 rod bearings. Why because of an oil issue. These are GM rods and not a Manley, Crower, Oliver or some other billet rod. You may also live within the limits of your motor and never need to to any major overhaul. Every other year, pull the pan and check the bearings,just like me. No problem with clearance back together it goes. IMO a $350.00 part that holds 3 extra quarts of oil and may save a motor, ( mine twice with broken rocker shafts) is cheap insurance. Knowing that I have 50-60 psi going around a turn at high G mean a safe oil pressure to me. I guess when I have $17,000.00 into a FE motor, I am looking for any extra help I can get. I can go to the junk yard and buy an LS1,LS2 and now LS6 motor for 2,500.00 bucks. I don't see and FE 427-428 motors and even less in Aluminum. If I raced full time, I would be looking at this very hard at swapping to GM. I get the parts at cost, from my job. Rick L.