Engine Failure

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Doug;

yep, and the worse part is the leak was down to a small seapage at Barber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not gonna have to worry about that anymore........the block is junk.....

Gonna have a machinest look at the crank, I think it is still good, he'll check it out and make sure, but I'm gonna get a new one anyway and save this one for a "street" motor later on........

BTW: I got a nice paper weight for you, should look good on your office desk and make a nice conversation piece!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[Doug I]

The block, 4 rods and 4 pistons and you've got an interesting coffee table.

[Mark O'Neal]

What did the timing chain look like?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Doug I

The block, 4 rods and 4 pistons and you've got an interesting coffee table.

Doug;
I'd have a better chance of seeing God in my living room than seeing a coffee table made out of those parts in my living room.....remember wifey is the second meanest woman in the state of Louisiana......and she ain't too happy about the motor, still has no clue of the cost to build another motor, thankfully!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What did the timing chain look like?

Mark;

Looks fine, I didn't see anything wrong with it....after I removed the broken piston/rod combo and the damaged piston/rod combo next to it, I turned the motor over by hand a number of times checking the other piston/rods,the cam was still in the block as was the timing chain and everything worked fine.....

How the cam was not damaged is beyound me, as the flattened rod cap was stuck between the rod and the block up against the cam...I should have taken some pictures of that...

The only thing I can think of is that when things started "going south" I put the car in neutral and killed the motor very quickly... From the first "knock/noise" to shutting off the motor was maybe 5 seconds at most and at the time maybe turning 2,000 rpms when it all started. I think that may have saved some parts.....

Actually looking at the block right now, the only damage is to the bottom of the cylinder skirts on the two rear cylinders, it's looks real ugly and is, but the water jacket is not broken and nothing else I can see it broken.... I really believe the block could be re-used for a stock or mild engine,although I'll never use it again, it's gonna go to the junk man.......

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

90% of the debris in the pan was in the rear of the pan as you can see in the photo. I found the broken rod bolt head end in the pan and one big piece of piston skirt, other than that, there was little debris in the sump part of the pan.....



The stuff you see in this photo is exactly where I found it when I removed the pan and that's after a 7.5 hour drive home with the car on the trailer.

David

[Doug I]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Doug;
I'd have a better chance of seeing God in my living room than seeing a coffee table made out of those parts in my living room.....

David

Well then a coffee table in the workshop Where you can keep all the receipts - IF you keep receipts. If you don't keep em they can't be found.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Well then a coffee table in the workshop Where you can keep all the receipts - IF you keep receipts. If you don't keep em they can't be found.

Since 1990, I've worn out 3 paper shredders!!!!!!!!!
Receipts can and will be used against you in DIVORCE COURT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW: I don't drink coffee....
now bud light is a different story......

David

[Doug I]

ahhhhhhhh

Instead of a coffee table you could make a can crusher. Reassemble what's left of the engine, feed the cans down the 2 empty holes and they'll be crushed in the 6 good pots. If they can go around a big end or 2 they may even go out the exhaust port (just remove the valve if it hasn't already dropped). Now you've done away with the receipts AND the beer cans.

[Jerry Clayton]

David


couple of questions---

In your pics it looks like there is a lot of main stud threads sticking up ---is the stud too long to properly tighten the main caps???

Also---was the one bolt NOT in the rod????? The way the cap is distorter and the other bolt broken it appears that one bolt was loose and came out---your crank and bearing and rod are not blue as if you had a bearing problem--

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

David


couple of questions---

In your pics it looks like there is a lot of main stud threads sticking up ---is the stud too long to properly tighten the main caps???

Also---was the one bolt NOT in the rod????? The way the cap is distorter and the other bolt broken it appears that one bolt was loose and came out---your crank and bearing and rod are not blue as if you had a bearing problem--

Jerry;

In some of the pictures I've already removed the stud girdle, so you will see a lot of main stud sticking out.... otherwise once torqued down, abut the length of the nut was what was sticking out above the nut....

The crank/rods are not blue at all, in fact, I think the crank is o-k, but gonna have a shop check it out,all the other bearings look normal, at the time,my oil pressure was 50psi and oil temp was 170 degrees as was water temp.When things were letting go, I looked down at the oil pressure gauge first as I was reaching for the igintion switch, and it was on 50 psi, also I have a oil pressure warning light set at 20 psi and it never came on, so, oil pressure was fine....... I'll keep the crank for a "street motor"... I'm afraid it took some "hits" from the rod and may be stressed and I wouldn't trust it in a race motor, but for a mild street engine, I think it'll be just fine.....

Yes, one rod bolt was broken and the other one was in the pan as you see it, bent up and knicked in numerous places....It's any bodies guess as to what happened and how???? The "good" rod bolt could have backed out, then the other one break or the other way around, don't know how one would be able to tell the sequence.....

I know I torqued them down to the manufacters specs as you will see a dab of r ed paint on the bolts and nuts... I do that after torquing anything and everything down, it's red finger nail paint from my daughters make-up kit and it lets me know that that bolt or nut has been torqued to specs............

here's a picture with the stud girdle on and one without,showing the stud length.....once the girdle is on the studs,the top of it is well into the threads and then there's the washer under the nut, so the nut is not close to bottoming out...These studs are a little longer than normal cause they were made to add a windage tray, which is darn near impossible with a stud girdle......




David

[Jerry Clayton]

were any of the other rod bolts loose when you took them out????

That picture of the main stud length is questionable as to the ability to get proper strech/tension

And I am not reading that you used a strech gage on the rod bolts????? What did you torque them to and what did you use to lube the threads/heads???

Your damage is consistant with a bolt coming out, the cap then breaking the other bolt off---no apparent bearing/oil problem----

[RICK LAKE]

DAVID GAGNARD David I was looking at the pictures and Jerry beat me to the question about rod bolt stretching before installing, Did you do this 5 times? Other question is if you are going to road race the car, either option would help, add a 3 quart accusump to the car to help keep oil pressure up in the high "G" turns or go DRY SUMP. I don't think the spinning helped the motor, and have done the same thing as you with 100 mph spinout and trying to get both feet on the pedals. Looking at the 2 rod bolts there looks like a stretching issue. The bearing didn't weld it self to the crank, so I would also look at the oil pressure on the motor. Just because the oil pressure gauge reads 50 psi at that location doesn't mean there is 50 psi at the far end of the block. Block, crank and rods are junk IMO upper end will need to be checked for straightness of mounting surfaces, Valves being bent and heads not being cracked,( high pressure test). Gald you and the car are in 1 piece. You must be getting slow, On my spinouts, I had the time to call God, Jesus, Buda, and look out for the trees and walls. The shakes took 10 minutes to go away Worst part was I did this twice in the same corner within 30 minutes of each other. Got smart, changed underwear and called it a day.Rick L.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Jerry/Rick;

I use a torque wrench and 30wt motor oil for lube on the bolt threads/head, torqued to 60 lbs in 2 stages....all other rod bolts were still torqued down...the "good rod bolt" may have come out first, I just don't have any way to prove/disprove that, but could certainly believe it happened that way....

I've never had an oil pressure problem, I run an 8 qt. Canton Road Race pan with 4 "trap doors", windage tray in the pan and side crank scraper and with the remote filter and oil cooler/12an lines, the set-up holds a total of 10.5 quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic oil...

During the intial build, I inquired with a number of racers about an accusump and to my surprise maybe 10% use one.... I talked with a bunch of veteran vintage road racers some running Roush built motors (25 to 30k a pop) and they do not use any kind of accusump. they run the same set-up I'm running and even the same Melling oil pump...
My idle oil pressure once warmed up is about 40 psi and while on track stays between 50psi and 60psi depending on my rpms...

Since the bearing all look perfect and have since the intial build, oiling has not been an issue. The motor has been apart once after the first 2 season for rings/bearing. Then this past summer I decided to upgrade to the BOSS 302 block and removed everything from my old block and put in the new BOSS block (put in new rings/bearing again,old ones looked good) and fought a rear oil leak for most of the year, so a month or so ago, I decided to go back to my old block and took everything out of the BOSS block and re-installed in the factory block. I then ran it at least 2 hours on a run-in stand in my shop before putting it back in the car. After in the car, it had about another hour of run time before the motor broke......

The pictures may not show it, but there are plenty of threads on the main studs, the nut is nowhere close to running out of threads when torqued down.

It would be nice to positively know what failed or caused the failure, but with the running time on the motor, I'm not complaining, I figure I got my money's worth of use out of it... I ran it a lot and sometimes very hard and up til now, never missed a beat...Last summer in 100+ degree heat after a tight 20 minute race, I came in with my water temp at 190 and oil temp at 265!!!!!!!! I was in a tight race and points battle and ran as hard as I could for the full 20 minute race......

Normal race/open track conditions, my water temp never exceeds 185 and oil temp will vary from 220 to 240.....

It has been a good motor and I'm gonna build another using the very same parts and pieces (new of course),that's how much I like the performance and value of this motor.......

David

[Jerry Clayton]

Yep===I'm one of the guys who don't like accu sumps--

I don't think you had any oil problems---- By my count the rod bolts would have been torqued 5 times and I would have replaced them probably on the 2nd build--

It does sound as tho you have a good runner and have been enjoying it--good luck down the road

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Yep===I'm one of the guys who don't like accu sumps--

I don't think you had any oil problems---- By my count the rod bolts would have been torqued 5 times and I would have replaced them probably on the 2nd build--

It does sound as tho you have a good runner and have been enjoying it--good luck down the road

Yes, I had a good running engine (and hopefully will have another in a month or two) and have had a lot of fun with it...The car is a lot better than the driver,a couple of years ago when I switched from bias to radial tires I was having handling issues and had another driver take my car out for a few laps and his first "hot" lap, he matched my best lap time and the next two laps, knocked a full second off that time each lap!!!!!!!!!

The rod bolts were torqued down 5 times and I never really gave any thought about changing them, I just thought the ARP bolts would last..... I'll be checking with ARP and see what they recommend as for as installation and replacement/service life, that was my fault for not doing that from day one.

It's not that I don't like accu sumps,I would have installed one from day one if I had been advised to do so. After seeing the top vintage race car's set-up, I copied it with my build with the road race pan/oil pump/oil cooler/oil filter and lines.

Try the ARP 2000 Bolt upgrade

will do..........

Rick L.;I'm gonna use the BOSS block since I have it, it's going to a machine shop for a thorough going over.The machine work on it looks superb,my issue was the rear main seal leaking,at one point pouring.. Ford Racing tech was NO help, in fact it was a waste of time to call them. Unless your a NASCAR or NHRA team/builder, don't bother calling them, cause they ain't gonna tell you anything.Hindsight being 20/20, I wish I had bought the Dart block instead of the Ford block.

The shop I spoke with wants me to bring in the block/new crank and bearing and we'll install it in the block and they'll take measurements and check a few other things, machinest says whatever the problem is,he can fix it, he's confident of that. This shop has built 5 or 6 engines on the BOSS block and he told me they had no problems with them....

Looks like I need a rod bolt stretch gauge now, and a call to ARP for their recommeneded procedures,service life. I have an hour meter on my car and I like to try to get 40 hours of running before freshening the motor, I know that's a lot, but the motor is not that wild/radical that it won't do it,it has..... Most of the more radical,high hp motors are freshened every 25 hours, but these guys make at least 150hp (if not more) more than me and turn their motors 8,500rpms when I'm turning mine 6,500 rpms...

Either way, I'm out there doing what I can just having a ball at it.If I could afford it, I'd make a call or two have a professionally built engine built and delivered, but in the meantime, I just keep plugging away.....

All the advise on the rod bolts and stuff is great and now I have some more research to do on that before building the new engine......
Thanks
David

[RedCSX1]

David,

Wow when we were talking yesterday I did realize your motor threw a rod! I am sure you will build up the 302 real nice. Keep me posted. See the email I sent you on the 67 Mustang update.

[Rick Parker]

Try the ARP 2000 Bolt upgrade.........sorry this happened to you

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry Clayton If memory serves me right, you are running a CHEVY motor???? You have listed and LS motor to boot. This is one of the best oiling systems a motor can have. As far as an accusump it can only help the motor in in roadracing and in avoiding dry start ups of the motor. You pull higher "g's" than I do Jerry and I find it hard to believe that you think that your oil pressure gauge is giving you that correct pressure for the WHOLE motor. 80% of the time I have seen and repaired LS1,LS2, and now the LS6 motor with guys who autocross and roadrace in there ZO6 vettes. Even with the dry sump setup they are killing the #7 & #8 rod bearings. Why because of an oil issue. These are GM rods and not a Manley, Crower, Oliver or some other billet rod. You may also live within the limits of your motor and never need to to any major overhaul. Every other year, pull the pan and check the bearings,just like me. No problem with clearance back together it goes. IMO a $350.00 part that holds 3 extra quarts of oil and may save a motor, ( mine twice with broken rocker shafts) is cheap insurance. Knowing that I have 50-60 psi going around a turn at high G mean a safe oil pressure to me. I guess when I have $17,000.00 into a FE motor, I am looking for any extra help I can get. I can go to the junk yard and buy an LS1,LS2 and now LS6 motor for 2,500.00 bucks. I don't see and FE 427-428 motors and even less in Aluminum. If I raced full time, I would be looking at this very hard at swapping to GM. I get the parts at cost, from my job. Rick L.

[RICK LAKE]

DAVID GAGNARD David If you pull up the installation procedure you will find that you are to do a stretch bolt procedure min of 3 times before installing the rods for final torque specs. Both ARP 8740 and 2000 bolts need this done.I do agree with Jerry on too many retorqueings on these rod bolts, if they where not changed between the Boss motor and back to the 302 block It's probably why the the motor broke at the rod cap. I took me 2 1/2 hours to do this on my stroker motor. After that the torque reading was in the 70+ lb spec. I went buy the stretch bolt gauge and 2 calls to Barry R. who sold me the kit. ARP also confirmed this in a call to tech. After installation you are to measure the bolt length and like you I mark the rod bolts to watch for any movement or backing out of the holes in the rods. .001" you are to replace the bolts if they stretched this much. I think ARP also tells you this too.
As far a the accusump this is just an insurance thing for the motor to do 2 things, peroil the motor before starting up and keep oil pressure up on high "g" turns. If you where going to race full time, a dry sump. I have a canton road race pan too with scrapers and windage tray. A $350.00 dollar aux oil tank is peanuts for what the motor cost to replace if low or no oil pressure happens when racing. I also have the kill switch for my motor when the oil pressure gets below 20 psi, It didn't work when I broke my first rocker shaft and didn't have the accusump on the motor. You know why, because of the location of the switch being at the housing for the lines. Front of the motor had 25 psi and the back of the motor had nothing. There was no oil in the rocker covers.
If you are going to stay with the 302 stock block I hope you will add girdles to the mains and the valley to strengthen the motor block. I heard that when the Boss block came out there where some issues with machining done on the block. Rear cap and mating surfaces. Dimpeling fixed the mating surfaces. Rear main seal, I didn't hear of a fix for this. May be a Poly seal instaed of rope. Does your crank have grooves in the rear
main area? If not this caused a rear leak.
I will live you something to think about, If you believe everything the OLD RACERS tell you we never would have gotten to where we are today. MUst PRO's drive and don't work on there cars. You, Jerry, and me and others are 1 man garages that have limited funds to do this. I have talked 4 people into adding accusumps in there cars and use them, I just got a thank you letter from a guy that got a broken oil pump drive. The sump saved a $15,000.00 motor. I am a student of building and racing motors, 30+ years. I learn new things everyday about building better, safer, stronger, and more durable motors and cars. Looking forward to see you back on the track and running hard. Rick L.

[Jerry Clayton]

David--
Please excuse me for what some may think is hi=jacking your thread but Ithink that this is an appropiate place for these comments especially after Rick's comments-

First off--my qualifications go a wee bit past the 1 man garage/shop
Second--In an engine, any engine, the crankshaft doesn't know what the valve cover says or what kind of rocker arms are on the heads, or even if the block is cast iron or aluminum (the brakes might know that)
Third--do a search for Keeling & Clayton California Charger ( check my gallery for a hint )
In the past year alone my car has been centerfold in Rodders Journal, cover of a some special dragster books, in a HARD cover book, National Dragster, and others that slip my 68 year old mind. Plus over the years we have had many Hot Rod, and other articals including several centerfolds and various tech features.

My cars have held numerous track records, Low ET Top Speed of meet, pole sitter,NHRA National record, Cragar 5 second club, gotten many best appearing, best engineered and also best appearing crew awards.

Revell has made 3 models, 1320inc a diecast, and Johnny Lightening one of them tiny 1/64 models---Revell has even done an reissue on one of the kits .

Besides the fuelers, I have raced Pro-Stock, was one of the first cars to run in the sevens, was the first car that qualified and made all runs in the sevens winning the race over a Pat Musi car, a Reher/Morrison car and the fastest Ford shotgun car at the time.

In mid 1980s I did considerable amount of work on stock block powered Indy Car, and work for several late model dirt stock cars---

In the mid 90s and early 00s, did kkarts with my boys, where karts and engines built by us won many regional and National events including the WKA World Road Racing championship at Daytona, Fla.

If that is enough on qualifications-----I have never had a accusump on any of them as it not only wasn't needed, added considerable weight, but the MOST important factor was because it took oil away from the engine when it needed it MOST, refilling the sump after a long hard braking/corner portion of the track---3 quarts of oil--how long does it take to pump 3 quarts of oil???? how far does your car travel in that time frame?????its like a huge leak in your oil system, taking the oil away from your bearings (and those wonderful roller rockers)---your crank knows this but the before mentioned valve covers don't have any idea--

As for oil pressure needed---we are running a 500 inch 1380hp 10400 rpm engine that most of the time doesn't indicate over 5 psi----however, it has a 5 stage scavage drysump pump that pulls over 20 inches vaccume---it will pull oil thru the engine even if the pump pressure stage goes bad

Enough for now and thanks for the rant