Solid roller lifter failure

bermblaster41 · #1 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 12:05 PM

I had one of my roller lifters have the needle bearings fail. These are not pressure fed like some on the market. Just checking to see if this is common . My cam was damaged a bit but was able to have it repaired. I have a little under 5000 miles on it. Just wanted to see what other members have had good luck with. I am looking at the comp cams solid roller lifters that are pressure fed. Any suggestions would be appreciated. My lifters are the top ones on this hyper link page http://camresearchcorp.com/ Thanks Bermblaster

patrickt · #2 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 12:29 PM

The reports over on the Ford FE forum are that the pressure fed solid roller lifters extend the useful life out by roughly 50%. What that means is that instead of the 3000-5000 miles you get 7500 miles before you need to pull them. I'll see if I can find a thread on that for you. If you don't like the idea of changing your lifters out in another 5000 miles or so then you should go solid flat tappet. Once you get past the break-in, and put a thousand miles on them, they will last the life of your car.

EDIT -- Here's a thread, and darned if it isn't our own Brent Lykins quoting 7500 miles for PF solid roller lifters. http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...th+roller+cams

blykins · #3 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:12 PM

Pressure fed lifters should last a long time if the idle is turned up so that they get enough oil.

There are lots of engines out there with thousands and thousands of miles on them while running street roller cams.

The Isky and Crower lifters are supposed to be a little higher quality than the Comp lifters, but the Comp Endurex lifters seem to work just fine.

patrickt · #4 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:16 PM

Brent, I'm sure I recall a thread where you said "Patrick is right, go with solid flats, they're God's gift to the Cobra community." But I just can't seem to put my finger on it....

blykins · #5 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:18 PM

Yeah, let me know if you ever find that.

patrickt · #6 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

Yeah, let me know if you ever find that.

He didn't mention what his engine was, and since we're in the Small Block forum I'm going to assume it's not an FE. But you know that a lot of very well-built FEs only score in the teens for oil pressure at idle. Do you feel comfortable with those kind of numbers and a solid roller cam?

blykins · #7 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:32 PM

Just checked his gallery....if that's his car, then you're right, it's a small block.

The last solid roller FE I built was pushing about 25 psi at idle. I had it idled up at about 1100-1200 rpm to get some crank splash as well.

blykins · #8 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:36 PM

Berm,

OEM roller lifters are hydraulic rollers.

A hydraulic roller lifter stays in contact with the cam lobe at all times.

A solid roller lifter is bounced off of the lobe because of valve lash. The needle bearings take a shock load in addition to valve spring pressure.

If you're wanting to keep the horsepower of a roller cam along with no maintenance, you can switch to a hydraulic roller camshaft.

For the Cobra community, I have no trouble recommending a solid roller cam (with pressure fed lifters). Most Cobras don't see a lot of miles per year.

Flat tappet cams used to be an option years ago with oil additives were in their prime, but these days, you're taking a great risk when you go to break in a flat tappet cam. Not only do you lose horsepower compared to a roller lobe, but you risk wiping the lobes off the cam and scattering metal throughout the entire engine, which necessitates a rebuild.

I won't build an engine without using a roller cam.

jdean · #9 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:37 PM

Is it a radical profile cam with a lot of spring pressure? These factors can decrease the life quite a bit.

bermblaster41 · #10 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:51 PM

The cam lift is .600 and duration@.050 is int 252 and exhst 255. Thanks Berm

patrickt · #11 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bermblaster41

The cam lift is .600 and duration@.050 is int 252 and exhst 255. Thanks Berm

Brent will agree that's a big-ass cam.

blykins · #12 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:06 PM

For a 408, yes it is. However, there are street roller grinds around that duration that aren't that hard on lifters/springs. It all depends on what the duration at .200" lift and the advertised durations are.

Comp's street roller grinds have about 38-42 degrees between advertised duration and .050" duration, which isn't bad for a solid roller. They also have less duration at .200".

You can run these cams without wild spring pressures and I wouldn't care a bit to run one in a street car.

Comp also has some wilder lobes (take the TK lobe for instance) with around 28° difference between .050" and advertised durations. They also spend a lot of time with the valve open and then open/set it down fast/hard.

blykins · #13 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:10 PM

FWIW, the cam for my 552ci BBF going in my Fox Mustang will be a solid roller.

patrickt · #14 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

FWIW, the cam for my 552ci BBF going in my Fox Mustang will be a solid roller.

OK, so what are you gonna tell Berm to buy? I know you won't get on the solid flat tappet bus, so I won't even try that.

blykins · #15 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:24 PM

Well, if he wants my suggestion, I would ask about the purpose of his car. If it's a just a street cruiser, I would say it's over cammed and he'd have a lot more fun with some bottom end on that motor. I would imagine that he's peaking at about 6600-6800 rpm now depending on what heads/intake he's using. I think he'd have a lot more fun with some low/mid range power.

If it's a late model roller block, he could get a nice XFI hydraulic roller cam and a set of OEM lifters for about the price of a good set of pressure fed solid roller lifters.

If it's a non-roller block, you could either be careful and drill/tap the lifter galley for a lifter spider and use OEM lifters, or you could use link-bar hydraulic roller lifters.

If he wants to stay with a solid roller and spin the motor a little more, I'd invest in a good set of lifters and have the springs checked to see if they still have the pressure that they should.

blykins · #16 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:25 PM

Jac, a 408 is a 351W block....9.500" deck.

Jac Mac · #17 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

Jac, a 408 is a 351W block....9.500" deck.

Hi Brent, yes realise that. Was speaking in general terms, the only blocks that are not really rev kit friendly due to space are the 8.200SBF & 8.700 Dart etc. I have often built my own rev kits for oddball stuff like Holdens etc that we have ''down under'', just used inners out of Dual Spring kits & spun up lifter collars & spot faced underside of pushrod holes in heads/or made up locator plates etc .

bermblaster41 · #18 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 03:03 PM

To be up front......I love the motor. I had it dyno'd back in july. 400 torque at 2600 rpm and max hp 437 at 5900 rpm at the rear wheels. The motor is a 408 with afr 205 heads(fully cnc'd) vic jr intake 850 quick fuel double pumper msd ignition with rev limit at 6000rpm. The motor is very streetable with no driving issues. I have driven other cobras with roush motors and was not disappointed with my motor. I guess what I am after is to pick the right lifter and hope not to have to change them ever 5 k miles. There is a video of my chassis dyno in this small block forum. Again thanks for your input guys. Berm!

blykins · #19 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:54 PM

Ah, I see what you're saying.

vector1 · #20 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 03:04 PM

i'm running a solid roller with the isky ezx rollers, which are a solid bushing instead of the needles. little pricey, but they are supposed to be the sliced bread of the solid roller lifters. i have a little over 40 hrs on the engine now, and lately i haven't read of any failures, initially there were some though and they have supposed to have made changes. these are not pressure fed btw.

like the previous guys have said, low idle and the pounding they take will kill a set faster then anything. mine idles at 1600 because of the vacuum advance hooked to the manifold but wouldn't let it go less then the 1200 neighborhood if i were using solid rollers.

a lot has to do with the lobe profile in making the lifters last along with lash, ditto with using hydraulic lifters and revving to higher rpm. my 406 has 244/244 and is supposed to peak hp at 6600, i would imagine yours to be 7g or above. your not running resitrictors to the top end are you?

since you have the engine apart, you might consider going hydraulic, then you have to reconsider your valve spring setup also. if i have one iota of problems with my solids, i would go back to hydraulic, can't beat set it and forget it.