endless clutch problems

[ha_pe_1968]

Clutch problems

Hi!

Since the day i bought my car i have clutch problems.
A short history:
After a few rides with it transmission was grinding when going in the reverse.
Was changing the slave cylinder and the fluid.
After a short while same again...changing fluid, new master and new slave cylinder.
One year and a few miles later...same problem...replaced the slave cylinder, was
making a special bracket for it where the alignment is better and changed the master from
7/8 to 1" with the 1" was doing this to have enough piston travel to adjust the rod at the slave cylinder.
(No pressure on the thru out bearing and enough travel to switch in reverse without grinding)
Even with the 1" Master and the pedal at the hole with the most travel my clutch pedal is 1 inch over the other
pedals. Was a short while ok but then i had the same problems...ok next fluid change and installing
a heat shield at the clutch and brake lines. Was working again but sometimes when i stopped the car
and shut off the engine i needed more force to get out of the first gear (with clutch fully depressed)
Was a feeling like the clutch would not fully disengage.
When driving again all gears works fine and smooth. Now since a short time i have a strange sound
at 2.000rpm and above...when depressing the clutch the noise is away.
When the engine is hot sometimes the clutch slave cylinder travels himself about 1" for and back???!!
When shutting off the engine the fork is at back position and no chance to move the clutch fork by hand
to the front...so nothing is loose.

What can i do or where can be the problem? (of course will change the fluid again...as allways)

[madmaxx]

A wild guess, the problem isn't the clutch, slave cylinder, lines it is the transmission. It could be bell housing misalignment. It's easy not to grind into reverse, shift into 3rd first and then reverse.

[ACademic]

Sounds like your clutch is dragging. Does it release closer to the floor or at the top? How is your clutch pedal oriented with the brake pedal? Same height? You may not be giving enough throw with the clutch pedal (it is adjustable from inside the footwell). You should also have someone depress the clutch while you are under the car. You can then observe the slave cylinder to ensure it's shimmed properly to allow the right movement. Or if it has an adjustable rod, then move it as appropriate.

[lovehamr]

MM brings up a good point; do you know if your bellhousing was aligned with your block/crank? Lateral missalignment can only be like .015" or something like that before you have problems.

You also didn't mention what clutch or transmission that you have. I had problems like you describe with the Centerforce clutch that I bought with my TKO600RR. I since have installed a McCloud that I got from Brent at B2 Motor Sports (advertised here on the forum) and haven't had a problem in 3K miles. Seems the weights on the CF pressure plate would get all wonky and do stupid things.

[scootter]

I have/had some of the same issues with mine. I have the TKO 5 speed. Hard to get into first when at a dead stop. It seems like it hits a wall. Mine has always done this. Grinding into reverse. Just a mentioned above, drop into second then reverse.
My clutch was extremely hard to push in. I have the Ram in mine. After messing with it forever, I changed the oil to DOT 3/4 synthetic, built the heat shield, re-worked the bracket as it wasn't aligned properly, made a slightly larger push rod that has a steel ball on the end and not a bolt, greased that, got spray lithium grease and carefully sprayed the input shaft on the trans, greased the hell out of the fork ball. It made a huge difference. The slave is 1"(I have ac deco push type #386251) and the master is 7/8".
My clutch pedal is higher then the brake pedal. I have to push it to the floor to fully disengage the clutch. I have my set so the fire wall is the stop for the pedal. Even if you have free play when you first install the slave cylinder, once you bleed all the air out, it will be tight against the fork since all the air is gone. You can push it back with your fingers to see it still does have free play.

*make sure alignment is perfect with the slave to the fork
*synthetic brake fluid DOT 3&4
*lube parts
*make sure the pedal has enough travel to fully release clutch
*heat shield.
*better contact piece to the fork. I cleaned all the burs from the fork hole with my dremel tool since it was all beat up. I found a fine thread metric rod that has a nut to adjust it and a steel ball with a hole drilled for contact on the fork

Good luck with it. As I mentioned, I still have the first gear syndrome at times. It just seems like it were it decides to stop sometimes and not mesh correctly. In my case, I think it is just the trans I have as I have a TKO from around the 2002 year that has been slightly abused!!

Scott

[jhv48]

Agree with the centerforce comment above. Might be the problem. The cause is a clutch that is not totally disengaging for one reason or another.

Now, what are the causes? I experienced much the same symptoms you are experiencing (grinds in reverse even if you engage a forward gear first, hard to shift into first at a stop. But once driving, everything shifted just fine) and threw a whole lot of time and money at the problem in order to solve it. Eventually I did everything you have done so far. Replaced the slave cylinder, fluid, master cylinder, installed heat shields over the lines, adjusted the clutch many times, moved the clutch rod to both the top and bottom holes on the lever, made a new slave bracket to facilitate a straight push on the clutch fork all to no avail. Next, I pulled the tranny and replaced the throwout bearing and pilot bushing and dialed in the bell housing and trans when reinstalled. Bingo! All problems went away for about 1500 miles, and then they returned. After removing and replacing the trans and throwout bearing and pilot bushing three more times, with the problem disappearing and then returning within 500-1000 miles, I decided to replace the entire clutch mechanism from the pilot bushing to the clutch fork, even though the clutch pressure plate (not a centerforce unit) and disc were pronounced in excellent shape every time it was examined.
Upon examination of the throwout bearing, the inside of the bearing, the part that rides back and forth on the bearing retainer from the transmission, was gouged. WTF? Upon further investigation, we found a slight burr on the bearing retainer that was gouging the throwout bearing causing it to eventually hang up and fail to move freely back and forth when the clutch fork engaged it. We removed the burr and polished the bearing retainer shaft and then put all new components back together. That was over a year ago and 2000 miles and the trans shifts like it was made to. You still need to put the trans in a forward gear prior to engaging reverse, but it used to grind when I did this. Now it just slides right in.

So, the next step is to pull the trans and examine alll the parts. Something in there is causing the disc to lightly drag and not fully release. It only takes a milimeter worth or play to cause the disc to remain in contact with the flywheel and cause your problems.

If your car is new and still being handled by the installer, this should be a no cost fix for you. Mine wasn't. If you do pull the trans, replace everything clutch related (from the pilot bushing to the clutch fork) check the bearing retainer for smoothness and have it dialed in before you put it back together. You don't want to have to do this again. Replacing individual parts might solve the problem, but then you might have to do this again if you chose the wrong part to replace.
Good luck, you'll find the problem.

[vatdevil]

Changing to a better shifter helped a lot for me.....Pro 5.0.
Also adjusted the clutch pedal to permit complete clutch disengagement.

[Thor maine]

Sounds like you have quite a few problems. If you have to keep changing the fluid , you must have a heat problem. If you are having noise and difficult shifting and grinding gears could be an alignment of the trans to the engine block or engagement/ dis engagement problem which leads us to another problem you talk about with the travel of the pedal. and that you don't have your components matched correctly with the clutch slave and master cylinders or even line size and material.

[ha_pe_1968]

Thank's a lot for all advices.
And sorry but have forgotten to tell what parts are in the car:
Roush 427R
Mc Leod clutch
Tremec TKO 600

The grinding was solved with the 1" master cylinder, mounting the clutch pedal at the one of the three holes with the most travel for the master cylinder, and adjusting the clutch pedal 1" higher then the brake pedal. When the fluid is fresh everything works great. After a few rides in the mountaines it can be that when i park the car in first gear that i have problems to get out the first gear ...after i am out of the first all gears work without grinding again. Installation should be ok, was done by Olthoff 7 years ago. The noise is new.
What i can really not understand is that there are a lot other cars which have no problems with heat at the clutch fluid and have the same setup.
In the meanwhile i really can understand people with a cable setup or automatic.

Greetings
Peter

[scootter]

Heat problem can be the configuration of the headers. I have the 514 so it is very cramped and the headers are close to the clutch line. I made the heat shield out of a piece of aluminum.

Also, I forgot to mention that I also put in the Pro Shift tower and changed the trans oil to the Special Snake Oil Synthetic blend. MAde some difference, but not much!!

Scott

[flipscobra]

When I first got my SPF with a 427 FE I had the same trouble an you could not shift it above 3000 rpm, it was not releasing. I tried bleeding it an near about wore my wifes leg out. I finally ordered a new MC an when I took the old one out an compared it to the new 1 I saw what was wrong, they left the oring that goes on the remote resavoir off, then I bought a pressure bleeder an bled the system an have not had a problem since. It has 2 remote reserviors 1 on the firewall an 1 under fender by the brake mastercyclinder. You might check this it could be your problem. Flip

[Bobcat]

Peter ... you mentioned that you have problems getting the tranny out of 1st gear when you leave the car parked with it in 1str gear . I remember a thread a while back where there were numerous problems with the TKO getting stuck in 1st gear when left in gear when you parked . Seems that the "cure" was to never leave the car in gear with the TKO 600 .
Maybe that`s your problem ??

Bob

[madmaxx]

I can't complain but sometimes mine is very difficult to get in gear if I set at a stop light in neutral. If I down shift into first while driving no issues. Not to hijack the thread but is that normal?

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

I can't complain but sometimes mine is very difficult to get in gear if I set at a stop light in neutral. If I down shift into first while driving no issues. Not to hijack the thread but is that normal?

No, something is causing your clutch to not completely disengage.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

I can't complain but sometimes mine is very difficult to get in gear if I set at a stop light in neutral. If I down shift into first while driving no issues. Not to hijack the thread but is that normal?

Seen this way too many times, even with brand new clutches.

How old is your clutch, and what style of clutch plate do you have?

We pulled out a clutch that travelled about 1500km after it was fitted.
Put the plate on the input shaft and rotated the plate, had a high spot, enough to allow the plate to drag (partly engaged) and give difficult gear selection from neutral.
Once moving shifted fine. Common complaint is 1st or Reverse. Generally when this happens, it will be ANY gear.

[madmaxx]

Tko 600 with center force and it will do it in any gear if sitting in neutral at light and then putting in gear. Seams more prevalent when hot but sporadic enough that its not worth messing with it. It always shifts fine if the car is moving.

[ha_pe_1968]

Hi!
Have readen the TKO problems about 1st gear sticking...but thats not my problem.
Think (and hope) that my problem is a heat and maybe a clutch problem. With new fluid and new cylinders all was working great and shifting was smooth. Will change the slave cylinder and the fluid again - if the noise is away then i can be sure that i have "only" a heat problem. The strange thing is that the clutch fork goes in and out at hot engine...but maybe the fluid was cooking and i have air in it. This season i was using ATE racing fluid - the next better would be Castrol SRF. Any experience with Castrol?

Thanks a lot for helping
Peter

[jhv48]

One final thing to try that should tell you if your current setup is providing sufficient travel to completely disengage the clutch, is to put the car on a lift. Raise the car. Have your mechanic bleed the system and put in fresh fluid. You will be sitting in the driver's seat. Start the engine. Have your mechanic walk under the car and watch the travel of the clutch fork while you depress the clutch and put the car into reverse. If it grinds (after first engaging a forward gear) have him push the clutch fork a tiny bit more with a lever or piece of wood and see if the shifting improves. If it does, you have found your problem. You need more travel. If you currently have a 1" master cylinder and a 7/8" slave cylinder, you should have about 1 1/4 " of fork travel. That is more than enough travel to ensure total release of the clutch. Most of us shift perfectly with about 1" of travel. If it still grinds in reverse, then you have an internal clutch problem.
You're going to have to pull the trans and figure out why your clutch isn't completely disengaging. All it takes is a single millimeter of warpage or misalignment to cause the problems you are experiencing. Watch this youtube video and you'll see the disc only moves a total of about 2 millimeteres from completely engaged to completely disengaged How a clutch works - internals of transmission and clutch assembly - YouTube. That can happen for a variety of reasons. Hot spot on the flywheel or pressure plate, slight imperfection on the disc, dragging pilot bushing or throwout bearing. The only way to completely eliminate the problem is to yank the trans and replace everything.

All the fixes you are doing have all been tried by many others on this forum, myself included. Hundreds of SPF owners have perfectly shifting TKO 600 trannys with engines that generate the same or more heat than yours. They all have the same 7/8" master and slave cylinders, same hydraulic line placement, same header locations, same brake fluid, yet theirs shift perfectly every time. If you've eliminated the external factors, and it sounds like you have, it's time to go internal.

[mattpatt]

I have an aluminum 351W based 427 hooked to a TKO600. The clutch is a Mcleod RST. The bell housing is a QuickTime. When putting things together I checked the runout between the bell housing's tranny opening and flywheel. It was out of spec (~.015"). I had to pull the block alignment pins and replace them with offset pins. Got it dialed in to ~0.003 TIR (total runout). I had trouble getting the slave set up - took it to Eric Voss to do it right. The lines are all run as delivered from Hillbank. No heating issues. I've never (knock on wood) had any problems shifting whether hot/cold or moving/not moving. So far so good with ~1800 miles on the car.

That said - I don't think your issue is tranny alignment - or else changing external things wouldn't fix it for a while.

[lovehamr]

The difference between working and not working for me was the CF (POS) vs. my new McLeod clutch.