Mark III Build

[blykins]

Rod, I don't know if you're trying to be intentionally inflammatory or not.

However, you do have a point. There is a recipe for 600 hp with a 482 ci FE.

But here is where your point becomes null and void: when the customer throws in a soda straw air cleaner in the middle of the build and no time to tune, all bets are off.

My carb guy and I will routinely sneak another 20-30 hp through a combination by carb tuning and timing adjustments. I have picked up 20-25 hp alone on some street applications just by changing the timing a few degrees. I started out with 600 (600!) hp with David Brown's 496. We ended up with 683 after a day of tuning.

For goodness sake, there were two dyno sheets shown....one ended up at 12.5:1 A/F and the other was at 12. Way too rich.

Again, I really have no dog in this fight, but Barry is less likely to come on here and argue with a customer publicly. However, if this would have been my customer, talking about how disappointed he was after hamstringing me with a tiny air cleaner and no time to tune, I would be livid.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

Rod, I don't know if you're trying to be intentionally inflammatory or not.

However, you do have a point. There is a recipe for 600 hp with a 482 ci FE.

But here is where your point becomes null and void: when the customer throws in a soda straw air cleaner in the middle of the build and no time to tune, all bets are off.

My carb guy and I will routinely sneak another 20-30 hp through a combination by carb tuning and timing adjustments. I have picked up 20-25 hp alone on some street applications just by changing the timing a few degrees. I started out with 600 (600!) hp with David Brown's 496. We ended up with 683 after a day of tuning.

For goodness sake, there were two dyno sheets shown....one ended up at 12.5:1 A/F and the other was at 12. Way too rich.

Again, I really have no dog in this fight, but Barry is less likely to come on here and argue with a customer publicly. However, if this would have been my customer, talking about how disappointed he was after hamstringing me with a tiny air cleaner and no time to tune, I would be livid.

No time to tune was not all my fault. A hose blew on the dyno and had to be fixed. It burned an hour.

[blykins]

Fair enough.

Find a good chassis dyno guy and sneak some more power out of it.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Fair enough.

Find a good chassis dyno guy and sneak some more power out of it.

Rod and I will tune it this weekend in our driveway and provide a dyno sheet showing 700HP. Piece o' cake....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

Rod, I don't know if you're trying to be intentionally inflammatory or not.

However, you do have a point. There is a recipe for 600 hp with a 482 ci FE.

But here is where your point becomes null and void: when the customer throws in a soda straw air cleaner in the middle of the build and no time to tune, all bets are off.

My carb guy and I will routinely sneak another 20-30 hp through a combination by carb tuning and timing adjustments. I have picked up 20-25 hp alone on some street applications just by changing the timing a few degrees. I started out with 600 (600!) hp with David Brown's 496. We ended up with 683 after a day of tuning.

For goodness sake, there were two dyno sheets shown....one ended up at 12.5:1 A/F and the other was at 12. Way too rich.

Again, I really have no dog in this fight, but Barry is less likely to come on here and argue with a customer publicly. However, if this would have been my customer, talking about how disappointed he was after hamstringing me with a tiny air cleaner and no time to tune, I would be livid.

Brent, if I'm the engine builder, then I'm going through my checklist of items to be discussed with the client along with any potential HP goals PRIOR TO THE ENGINE BUILD AND PRIOR TO ANY CONTRACT BEING SIGNED. So any air cleaner discussion is completed upfront. The air cleaner should have been discussed prior to the build, but if the client surprises the engine builder with a "soda straw" air cleaner during the build, then further communication about HP goals should have taken place and some type of buyer "waiver" signed along the lines of a change order, but stating reduced HP goals so engine builder manages expectations via client communication. The client deviated from the "recipe" and that should have been documented so we wouldn't be here at all.

I'm not trying to burn anyone. I have no "dog in this fight" either. But I see a problem and I also see a solution with strategy, planning and communication throughout the entire process.

[blykins]

A lot of times, the customer has no idea of how much hood clearance he will have. All-in-all, a 482 at least deserves a 4x14" air cleaner, or if it's in a pickup truck, as much air cleaner as is aesthetically possible. In a Cobra, it is what it is. The hood clearance and shape of the hood really puts a damper on things.

I seem to have a different view of dynos than my customers. I bolt them up to make sure they don't leak, knock, fart, blow smoke, and the A/F ratio is as close as I can get it here. Customers just want a dyno sheet with numbers on it. I know the numbers will change the instant something else is added to the engine, if it's taken across country, etc.

Frankly, if we were to look at the "bottom line number" after all the "power suckers" were removed, then honestly we'd have to aim for 700-725 hp engine numbers before it's choked down by tiny air cleaners, under-hood air flow and temperatures, header designs, sidepipes, etc. We simply can not account for all parasitic power losses on the engine dyno. That's what a chassis dyno is for.

It seems like you and I are both in the same boat here, innocent bystanders with an opinion, only having the data that Bill has included in the past 4-5 pages of text. However, I just felt (and still do) that Bill's initial recap of how much disappointment he had was unwarranted and I've explained my reasons for that.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Frankly, if we were to look at the "bottom line number" after all the "power suckers" were removed, then honestly we'd have to aim for 700-725 hp engine numbers before it's choked down by tiny air cleaners, under-hood air flow and temperatures, header designs, sidepipes, etc. We simply can not account for all parasitic power losses on the engine dyno.

... and he still won't be able to push the throttle more than about two and a half inches before the wheels break loose and his rear comes out from under him. Dyno numbers with the engine out of the car are always fake. Some just more fake than others.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

However, I just felt (and still do) that Bill's initial recap of how much disappointment he had was unwarranted and I've explained my reasons for that.

I hardly went nuts, I said"
Engine is done. Dyno'ed at 562 hp at 5600 rpm and 578 tq at 4100 RPM.
I was disappointed that it came in below the target set but doubling back to correct it would take time I do not want to spend as the summer slips away. Given more time on the dyno I think more power could have been realized but I could not stay longer unfortunately."

I also said the car was late. I did not say it was all the engine. I did not push Barry knowing the chassis was late.
The under promise and over deliver was directed at Superformance also.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I also said the car was late. I did not say it was all the engine. ...
The under promise and over deliver was directed at Superformance also.

Uhhh, if you wanted that then you should have bought an ERA. Peter actually shipped me my finished car before he even figured out how much I owed him. And then they all went on Christmas vacation and didn't get around to billing me until well in to January. He said "yeah, but I knew you were good for it."

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Uhhh, if you wanted that then you should have bought an ERA. Peter actually shipped me my finished car before he even figured out how much I owed him. And then they all went on Christmas vacation and didn't get around to billing me until well in to January. He said "yeah, but I knew you were good for it."

Their lead time is pretty long like 7 months last I heard and I have heard they are late by a recent purchaser so I don't think they would meet the definition either.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I hardly went nuts, I said"
Engine is done. Dyno'ed at 562 hp at 5600 rpm and 578 tq at 4100 RPM.
I was disappointed that it came in below the target set but doubling back to correct it would take time I do not want to spend as the summer slips away. Given more time on the dyno I think more power could have been realized but I could not stay longer unfortunately."

I also said the car was late. I did not say it was all the engine. I did not push Barry knowing the chassis was late.
The under promise and over deliver was directed at Superformance also.

Just in jest at this point Bill, I'll leave this right here..... I guess "nuts" is a relative term.

"I was disappointed that it came in below the target set but doubling back to correct it would take time I do not want to spend as the summer slips away."

"Yea, I know it is plenty but the goal was 600 and that is not close."

"I agree, trust me he is aware I am disappointed."

"A process that should have been fun was a bit frustrating. This industry never heard the expression, under promise and over deliver."

"I asked for something and paid the bill, no complaint on price, no negotiating. Why come up short? "

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

Frankly, if we were to look at the "bottom line number" after all the "power suckers" were removed, then honestly we'd have to aim for 700-725 hp engine numbers before it's choked down by tiny air cleaners, under-hood air flow and temperatures, header designs, sidepipes, etc. We simply can not account for all parasitic power losses on the engine dyno. That's what a chassis dyno is for.

I did not ask to spend more time on the dyno (although I am sure Barry would have done it without hesitation) because it would serve no purpose. The engine ran fine, did not miss or smoke, did not leak and started well. I think the only way to tune it is in the car for the reasons you pointed out above.

That is my plan, to get it on a chassis dyno. Knowing it is a bit rich is good. Too lean can do damage.