Optioning out a roller

[Davidless]

Hi all,
I’m getting close to putting a deposit on a roller and will have a ton of questions as I become more involved in the process.
Is the double clear coat realy necessary for the fear of not polishing through to the base coat?

Thanks for any advice
David

[jeffgrice]

Originally Posted by Davidless

Hi all,
I’m getting close to putting a deposit on a roller and will have a ton of questions as I become more involved in the process.
Is the double clear coat realy necessary for the fear of not polishing through to the base coat?

Thanks for any advice
David

If you are already not working with a dealer I would be delighted to help you out! 586.489.5990

To answer your question it is not necessary. I have had 2 SPFs and wax a lot and never had a problem.

For dark colors that will require more paint correction to rid swirl marks it might be worthwhile.

Jeff

[jhv48]

If you plan on actually driving the car and not having a garage queen, I would opt for the additional clear coat, and here’s why.
If you regularly drive the car, every tiny piece of dirt that hits the front end or front edge of the rear fenders will make a small pit/chip in the paint. Owners choose to call it patina. Many owners apply clear coverings to protect these exposed areas.
In my personal experience, after 12,000 miles of paved road driving, the front of my car looked like it had been shot by a shotgun. Lots of small chips and patina on the front and rear fenders. And I drive in Southern California and never in the rain or dirt roads.
Fast forward, after a repaint including heavier coats of clear, I now have an additional 25,000 miles on the car and not a single chip or pit anywhere on the car. Paint looks like brand new.
So, based on my experience, I would definitely recommend additional clear coat protection if you want the most durable paint possible.

[Dinahmohumm]

Another question for the forum (and please don't shoot me): EFI or carb?

[redvettx2]

Hot POTATO.

[1795]

Originally Posted by Dinahmohumm

Another question for the forum (and please don't shoot me): EFI or carb?

Better get that kevlar vest ready

[eschaider]

The choice depends entirely on you and your skill set, along with what you are willing to pay for the skills you don't have. Neither route is cheap; each has its advantages. If you go to the Holley site and select 850 cfm, vacuum secondaries, and an electric choke, the site will present you with a single solution. It is a Holley Speed Demon carburetor with a price tag of $731. Add about $250 to the price tag if you want one of the whizzy double throw down carbs.

To that price tag, you will need to add dyno time, the cost of a competent Holley carb tuner (the real McCoy, not an imposter), and perhaps a hundred bucks or so in toys to bring the carb up to where it needs to be to work properly on your engine. Figure about $1,000 for dyno time. You might get away with less but probably not. When you are done, you will be in the tank for about $2.5K to $3K. The bulk of the money will be spent on services for dyno time and the right carb guru.

If you go the EFI route, while many paths are available, I recommend the DIYAutotune MS3Pro PnP ECU. You can buy it for $1,499, but that is not the end of the road. The Fuel pumps and associated lines are another $1K in round numbers, and the injectors will cost $750, give or take a hundred dollars, depending on where you buy them. Add another $350 for fuel rails. The engine wiring harness the MS3Pro PnP uses is a stock Ford harness, so that saves you some money because you can source it out of Ford, eBay, or a salvage yard. Let's say $350 (or less) for your harness.

Like virtually all aftermarket EFI systems, the MS3Pro comes with both tuning and data logging software, and in the case of the MS3Pro PnP it also has a base tune to get you out of the blocks. If you do not know how to tune and have the current social media imbued, but not useful, tuning skills, you will need to get back to the dyno. This time it should be less expensive than the carburetor stop, but you will still be in the tank for $500 to $700.

A Mass Air Flow based EFI system will start in any weather, and at any altitude with the flick of the key. It will provide you with OEM quality, reliability, repeatability, and driving satisfaction — but all that, not surprisingly, comes at a higher price point than a carburetor-based system.

Relative cost differences: Carb, somewhere between $2,500 and $3,000; EFI, somewhere between $4,500 and $5,000. If you decide to add whistles and bells to either system, the price of poker goes up.

A couple of parting thoughts. The old idea of recurving your ignition advance with springs, weights, and assorted black magic is caveman crude compared to what you can do with EFI. Your ability to specify timing in fractional degrees and precise rpm increments using EFI is simply impossible to reproduce in the old style distributor systems. This comparative difference is pretty much the case across every aspect of tuning the two different systems.

For example, the ability to control your AFR across the entire engine operating range and hold it to your target AFR within a decimal fraction of one AFR is impossible to do with a carb. Additionally, the ability to build into your tune a highway cruising mode where you get 23 to 25 mpg possibly higher without hurting your wide open throttle power production (or the engine) is absolutely impossible to build into the carburetor fueled engine.

In short, the reliability, predictability, drivability, fuel mileage, and horsepower you will be able to produce will be more in line with what you intuitively expect with EFI than with a carb.

There is one final consideration. Today it is becoming increasingly difficult to find knowledgeable carburetor tuners/modifiers. They tend to be old guys at or near end of life. When the few that are left pass on, you will be hard-pressed to find someone to care for the carb — because they will all be dead and buried.

Not so with the EFI service crowd. You might even discover you can learn how to do it yourself with a bit of reading and curiosity — it is far from hard to do and has a much more visible cause-and-effect relationship with what you do and how the engine responds than the carburetted alternative.

The EFI alternative will be more expensive initially and less expensive over the life of your car — and you will discover if you should choose to, that you can easily maintain it yourself. The ante at the poker table will initially be higher for the EFI, and the cost of ownership will be lower in the long term. The driving and ownership experience will be superior but initially more expensive with an EFI election.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Dinahmohumm

Another question for the forum (and please don't shoot me): EFI or carb?

Only if you do a full MAF based system. Any of the configurations are manual tuning to your conditions for altitude. MAF configurations compensate for altitude automatically (just like your new car). But if you use the other configurations you've essentially bought a $4000 electronic carburetor and will have to re-tune if you change altitude.

Much has been written on this of late. Use Search or just scan topic titles.

Also, if you're looking for one of the faux-8-stacks, then EFI is your only logical choice. As much as I think EFI on standard engines is a waste of money (same result, much more cost), the 8-stack is a completely different animal and as much as I loved them back then, I wouldn't put whipping a set of real Webers into submission on anyone. Not the initial setup but they are complex mechanical linkages that do "wander" and getting them properly aligned should they do so is a chore that is left to the pro. Like Ed said, finding someone to do carbs is getting difficult, but finding a real Weber pro is only 10% of that remaining population. But do 8-Stack only if you do MAF or you're right back in the re-tuning if you move to Colorado.

PS. As to the expense of dyno tuning carbs, I think that isn't necessary most of the time. Back in the day a had two carbs - one jetted for high altitude and one for "home". They were just out of the box. Noone ever dyno-tuned the carb in a 57 chevy. If you track the car it's different, but I wouldn't consider it an essential step.

PPS. If you get your engine built, it will be tuned by the builder on an engine dyno (not a chassis dyno which is a more expensive post-build approach). If you buy a crate engine, e.g. Roush, it's already done too...

PPPS. Re: the qualifications of tuners and people that can zero-in carbs and after market EFI systems: Yes, carb guys are rare, but the after market EFI tuning is equally specialized and found in speed shops. Unfortunately, people who put EFI on a 60s engine are somehow connecting the operation of the engine to the completely top down designed Coyote in a Mustang. It ain't...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by eschaider

There is one final consideration. Today it is becoming increasingly difficult to find knowledgeable carburetor tuners/modifiers. They tend to be old guys at or near end of life. When the few that are left pass on, you will be hard-pressed to find someone to care for the carb — because they will all be dead and buried.

This is unfortunately the case. Here's my recommendation, buy two of the exact same vacuum secondary carburetor, one nice and new from Summit or Jegs and the other a cheaply priced used version off of Ebay. Then watch YouTube videos on taking it apart, cleaning and adjusting it, how to change jets, power valves, how to adjust the A/F ratio, how to get it to idle off the secondaries instead of the primaries, the importance of the transfer slot, vacuum and so on and so on. Do all of that as you practice on the used one there at your kitchen table until you start to feel pretty good about your skills when it comes to monkeying with it at the table and then have one of the old guys at your local club show you how he likes to tune and adjust your carb. If you lived across the street from me I could have you up to speed on tuning your Holley is one summer and the knowledge will last you a lifetime. A properly tuned Holley is an absolute joy to drive in a Cobra whether you're driving hard or just puttering over to the car show.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

PPS. If you get your engine built, it will be tuned by the builder on an engine dyno (not a chassis dyno which is a more expensive post-build approach). If you buy a crate engine, e.g. Roush, it's already done too...

This may sound nice, perhaps even trivial, but it will play very big in terms of how much time you spend trying to make you engine perform properly and how much time you spend enjoying your Cobra.

The tuning work done by the crate engine providers is a big time, but often silent and overlooked, benefit you get when you decide to purchase a crate engine instead of building your own. To do the same job yourself would be surprisingly difficult.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by Davidless

Hi all,
I’m getting close to putting a deposit on a roller and will have a ton of questions as I become more involved in the process.
Is the double clear coat realy necessary for the fear of not polishing through to the base coat?

Thanks for any advice
David

Most paint experts we have talked to do NOT recommend double clear coat. The thought is too much mil thickness opens the chance for both some discoloration and that the increased thickness actually makes chipping more likely. If you properly take care of the paint, there is no need for multiple clear coat cutting. Ask around at some high-end paint shops and get their opinion.

[Dinahmohumm]

Very helpful comments -- thank you. I have a 302 roadster on order, too.

[Alfa02]

@Dinahmohumm, Love the name You wouldn't happen to be a Zappa fan The gentleman was a Genius, saw him @ Fillmore West in late 74. Cheers Tom.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by Alfa02

@Dinahmohumm, Love the name You wouldn't happen to be a Zappa fan The gentleman was a Genius, saw him @ Fillmore West in late 74. Cheers Tom.

"I stiffened my thumb and applied rotation to her sugar plum"

[incoming]

To the OP, knowing the location where you are really makes the decision on the fuel delivery system. Living in Cali and driving in the mountains is an almost impossible tune for a carb.

[FredG]

This was an easy one for me. I grew up working on carbs in the 60's. I enjoy it. It's becoming a dying skill. As previously stated, it all depends on your skill level and your specific situation. Years ago, on here, I saw a comment on another thread asking the same question... EFI or Carb. It stated if something goes awry on a carb, more than likely, the car will still run. If something goes awry on EFI. you break down.

Originally Posted by Dinahmohumm

Another question for the forum (and please don't shoot me): EFI or carb?

[Dinahmohumm]

@ Alfa02 and Mark IV: Yes I am a Zappa fan. Like carburetors, there aren't many of us left anymore.

[sunman]

Saw Frank in 74,80 and 84 here in OKC. With Steve Vai, 80.
In 84 he told us to “STFU, If you want to hear the old stuff buy the albums!”
Good times…but we already had the albums.

A friend has a Terminator X on a LS1 in a 70 Chevy PU with the Dakota custom dash.
The EFI is sweet, I’m going to get one too.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by FredG

It stated if something goes awry on a carb, more than likely, the car will still run. If something goes awry on EFI. you break down.

Sort of like points vs electronic ignition.