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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
I am kind of surprised by the ruling. First Mr. Horn said before the confrontation he was going to kill them, and second both shot in the back? Then again things are different in Texas.Obviously these 2 are P'sOS!
What's the term? KARMA......looks like they got what they deserved one way, or another.
In Texas,"They/He Needed Killin' " is an acceptable defense in Court.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2008, 07:46 AM
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New York Times.com
July 17, 2008

" In a country where few people have guns or access to them, a spate of knife attacks, many involving teenagers, has forced the issue to the top of the domestic agenda. "


Officials Struggle With Rise in Knife Crimes Among Britain’s Youths

By SARAH LYALL
LONDON — Every day, it seems, there are more victims. Shakilus Townsend, 16, stabbed to death by a masked gang. Ben Kinsella, also 16, fatally stabbed during an argument outside a pub. Victims in Bristol, Manchester and Glasgow. Four people fatally stabbed in London in one 24-hour period alone last week.

In a country where few people have guns or access to them, a spate of knife attacks, many involving teenagers, has forced the issue to the top of the domestic agenda. The Metropolitan Police are so concerned, they said recently, they have made knife crime their top priority, along with terrorism. Government and law enforcement officials are scrambling to produce plans to allay public fears.

On Monday, Prime Minister Gordon Brown announced a series of measures that he said would make it “completely unacceptable to carry a knife.” The plan includes automatic prosecution for anyone over the age of 16 caught with a knife and doubling the maximum sentence for knife possession, to four years. It also sets up a $6 million advertising campaign to discourage young people from committing crimes with knives and a program to force perpetrators to confront their actions by, for instance, attending courses that describe what happens to stabbing victims.

The prime minister also said the government would intervene directly with as many as 20,000 families whose children were considered at risk of turning to violence because “the mother or father have lost control of their children and their whole life is actually in difficulty.” Parents who refused to accept the government intervention, he said, would be threatened with eviction from their homes.

“Too many people, young and old, do not feel safe in the streets, and sometimes even in their homes,” he said, speaking at his monthly news conference.

But opponents of the government complained that the plans were merely warmed-over versions of past initiatives.

“Jacqui Smith is coming up with the same half-baked ideas because the government has been in denial about the scale of the knife crime problem,” Chris Huhne, the home affairs spokesman for the Liberal Democratic party, said, referring to the home secretary, who has offered a number of proposals recently.

Knife crime, most often involving weapons like simple kitchen knives, has dominated the headlines in recent weeks, with reports of fresh cases every day. But statistically, the picture is more murky. Violent crime over all has actually decreased by 41 percent from a peak in 1995, according to the British Crime Survey, in which citizens report their exposure to crime.

Yet the survey accounts only for people 16 and older, and evidence suggests that young people in poorer areas are increasingly likely to carry knives, and increasingly likely to use them. The Daily Telegraph, which examined data from three-fourths of the police forces in England and Wales, reported recently that nearly 21,000 people had been stabbed or mugged at knifepoint so far this year.

Doctors in busy emergency rooms say they are seeing a steep increase in patients admitted with injuries caused by violence, often involving sharp objects like glass bottles or kitchen knives. A recent study by the Center for Public Health at Liverpool John Moores University found that the number of people admitted to hospitals after arriving in the emergency rooms with injuries caused by violence had increased by 30 percent across England in the last four years.

According to the study, rates of admission as a result of violence were six times higher in the poorest fifth of the country than in its most affluent areas. “The difference between the experience of violence between the wealthier and poorer communities is quite dramatic, even for children as young as 14,” said Mark Bellis, director of the center and an author of the study.

The government’s plans, part of a $200 million program to combat youth crime, are the latest in a series of measures meant to address the country’s problem with knife crimes.

In May, Ms. Smith, the home secretary, announced a $10 million knife-crime-reduction program in problem cities.

In London, where 20 teenagers have been killed with knives so far this year, the police embarked on a six-week blitz in May. About 27,000 people were searched, 1,200 were arrested and 500 knives were seized, the authorities said.

The Conservative Party said the government’s plans did not go far enough and called for steeper penalties. The party’s leader, David Cameron, told reporters: “If you are carrying a knife and you are caught, you should expect to go to prison. Plain, simple, clear.”

But Mr. Huhne of the Liberal Democrats said that approach was the wrong one. Young people in Britain — who regularly score at the bottom of charts that measure relative deprivation, poverty, educational attainment, health and general well-being in Europe — have been subject to “mass criminalization,” he said.

“By dragging more and more young people through the criminal justice system, they have reduced the fear of a criminal record and contributed to the problem,” he said.

Roger Grimshaw, research director of the Center for Crime and Justice Studies at King’s College London, said little was known about how many people carry knives and under what circumstances. “We need to look at the violence itself instead of focusing on the instrument, because clearly knives are very available,” he said.

“Many of these people come from disadvantaged districts in which there is a buildup of fear,” he said. “We have to think about the circumstances in which young people are tempted to use violence, where they have few resources and a law-abiding lifestyle is not a rewarding one.”

Professor Bellis of the Center for Public Health said that the authorities should be “intervening far earlier, before violence erupts” in problem areas.

“For certain communities, violence dominates,” he said. “We have to provide education and support for those families that need additional support, and we have to tackle inequalities. Many people are growing up in environments where they feel they have very little to lose.”
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2008, 08:38 AM
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Why can't their politicians understand what the common people know, which is the same here with the gun issue. No matter how many stupid laws they pass, criminals are going to have weapons and access to them. And the crime rate will just continue to go up as they know they don't have to fear facing an honest person that may be armed or capable of defending themselves. Now if I can just get a stock pile of the rocket propelled grenades for my launcher, I should be ready for the next round of dope wars here.

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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2008, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron61 View Post
Why can't their politicians understand what the common people know, which is the same here with the gun issue. No matter how many stupid laws they pass, criminals are going to have weapons and access to them. And the crime rate will just continue to go up as they know they don't have to fear facing an honest person that may be armed or capable of defending themselves. Now if I can just get a stock pile of the rocket propelled grenades for my launcher, I should be ready for the next round of dope wars here.

Ron
Ron61, I completely agree. As a law abiding, tax paying citizen I should be allowed to buy (and register) whatever kind of gun I want.

As a NY resident I hope the NRA is successful in their attempt to repeal some of the very restrictive NYS anti-gun laws, epecially the AR ban on certain manufacturers/specifications

Joe-NY
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2008, 05:59 PM
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I personally don't want the open carry in Texas. I want the POS idiots out there to wonder if I have it on me or not....I want them to always think that I could be their last target...and I will be if they come at me.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:19 AM
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Rural Counties in Cal. DO ISSUE CCW permits. The only restrictions I have seen have been not authorized in BARS. You can't get one in a large metro area unless you know someone.

You can't have TOO MANY GUNS OR BULLETS.

All law abiding citizens should be able to carry a firearm...it may cause the world to be a LESS violent place...the bad guys might think twice before trying to make you a victim.

Just my 2 cents.

Tom
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008, 03:05 AM
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Tom,

As a long time CCP carrier and life time NRA member, I have been involved in several of the local classes here in Northern Calif., for teaching new people the law and how to get their CCP. The carry law not only applies to Bars but most State and Federal buildings unless you have special permission to carry in them. Fortunately we have Sheriffs here who are gun advocates and believe every person that doesn't have a record and can pass the one week class and qualification test should be allowed to have a CCP. Some have failed the class. The laws are very strict and you had best know them before getting a CCP. We have to many that want one for the ego trip of I carry a gun. But most want them for protection and in this meth lab and dope laden capitol area, believe me they are almost a necessity. It is really a sad statement of our society when you feel you need to carry a gun just to walk down a street safely or to hike up through the canyons.

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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008, 03:38 AM
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Ron,
It is a sad statement of a society. The criminals have been allowed to get away with so much and not feel threatened for so long that even some of the law abiding citizens are now starting to think that it is right. I fully support the carry laws as I think it is time to take back our country from the criminals.
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:51 AM
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Thoughts from Down Under about a society going mad

Every now and then when I want a laugh I read some of the articles not pertaining to Cobra issues. It often gives me an insight into the way people from other countries think.
This is one of those times, however every now and then I read an article/s which just plain makes me think what a sad sick world we live in (and lately it seems to be generated more and more out of the Americas). Gangs, violence drugs, murders etc etc look no further than your own back door if you live in the States. Forget teaching others (Afganistan, Iraq, Africa) the best way to live it seems America itself needs to undertake some serious home work.
The people who want to stamp their own authority on something (criminals) will always find a bigger nastier meaner way of doing it. If joe bloggs carries a gun the criminal will carry a roadside bomb. If you think openly carring side arms to the local dairy is going to save you then you have seriously lost the plot.
GOD SAVE AMERICA because I dont think the thinking on this thread will
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:12 AM
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macloft,
This is not meant to be an argument, just how/why I feel the way I feel. While what you mentioned is true for any true gangster or hardcore criminal. They will just find another way to do it. Bigger/Better weapons, better tactics. etc... The problem is this is not the majority, the majority is just looking for an easy mark. They are so lazy that they will not even work at being a good criminal. And there are those who are not scared of the legal system, but would not consider attacking an armed person because they do not want to risk getting hurt. If someone really wants your stuff you will not stop them, but the majority will be deterred. Here it has become cool to act as if you are a gangster, and this needs to be stopped. It is too much for the police to be able to do, the parents act the same, so leaves the citizens to do it themselves. A friend of mine has NRA stickers on his truck, a gun rack, and other signs around his property. His neighbors on each side of him have had their houses broken into. One of them has been broken into 2 times the other 3 times. He has never had anyone attempt to break into his house. His neighborhood is a Middle Class neighborhood and averages 8-10 home invasions/month. He tells me the other people that make it known that they have guns have not been broken into either. These criminals are looking for the easy targets and I refuse to be an easy target. If that makes me part of the "mad" society, then I am what I am.

For the record, I fully agree that we need to clean up our own backyard before we can tell anyone else to do the same.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008, 06:32 AM
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Macloft,

Sorry but I disagree with you completely. The gangs and such you refer to are all criminals and most have records. But to say that an honest citizen having a gun won't help them is either just plain uninformed or you are just anti gun. Two times the fact I was carrying has kept me from being attacked. Once by 3 dope dealers who I held until they got a unit there to arrest them and they are long gone. I was walking down the street and they came at me from the other side of the street with knives and iron rods because they thought that I had seen them making a deal. The other time I was in my Cobra when I had it and was driving through town and had to stop at a light. This seedy looking creep with a hunting knife came out into the street telling me to get out of the Fuc**** car, he was taking it. When he saw the 9mm in my lap pointed up over the door he dropped the knife and ran back into an alley. You either have a very naive knowledge of what it is like to have to live around one of the most prolific meth and dope producing regions in the West or are just plain don't comprehend what it is like to have to protect yourself. I have two neighbors who carry and we all have alarm systems. No one has ever bothered our homes, but all of the others around have been broken into so many times they won't buy good stuff any more. Oh, and these dopers have and do shoot at the police too. I would love to live in your fantasy world where everyone treats everyone like they should.
But until that happens, I will continue to carry and to help with the classes.

As for cleaning up our own backyard, I agree with you on that completely. We have no right or place to try and tell the rest of the world how to live.

Ron
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:36 AM
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Macloft,

It is true we need to clean up our own backyard. No doubt about it.

I also disagree with you. There simply are not enough police to be at every corner to stop the thugs from doing what they do.

While I certainly agree with the carry laws, I also agree with the training that must be taken before you get a license to carry. I think you may misunderstand that all Americans just go to the pawn shop and grab a 38 and strap it to our sides. It just isn't the case.

I do understand your point from outside looking on though. I think that if America does not clean up its act (and soon) our foreign tourist will stop coming to the Great Country.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:35 AM
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After the recent Supreme Court decision I got to thinking about what the "framers" of the Constitution had in mind when they wrote the 2nd Amendment. It's difficult to put one's mind back over 200 years to see if they could have envisioned what society would look like in the future. During a time of single shot muskets (which mis-fired as often as fired), blunderbusses etc. could they have imagined a society armed with Glocks, AK47's etc.?

If I am not mistaken the 2nd Amendment was adopted in 1791...presumably the biggest threat to one's safety and property at the time was the RedCoats. Now it's gangs, druggies and other armed thugs.

Just some musing about how the times have changed.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:40 AM
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Source: USA Today

" The provisions still rank as some of the toughest in the nation. But perhaps the most controversial aspect of the law, gun rights advocates say, mandates that gun owners keep their weapons unloaded, disassembled or secured with trigger locks, unless they face a "threat of immediate harm."

By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — The doors opened Thursday to post-handgun ban era here, with gun rights advocates vowing another legal challenge to the city's newly approved gun control law.

Less than a month after the Supreme Court overturned the city's 32-year-old handgun ban — the most restrictive in the nation — the same litigant in the landmark case appeared at police headquarters and said he likely would wage a new fight.

Dick Heller, whose legal challenge prompted the Supreme Court ruling, said he would challenge new city regulations that continue to ban District residents from owning semi-automatic weapons.

"The city still does not yet understand the decision of the Supreme Court," Heller said from the steps of police headquarters. "We have been denied again."

The court struck down the handgun ban June 26, and established for the first time in U.S. history that the Constitution's Second Amendment gives individuals the right to keep guns at home for self-defense. But the court also indicated that a person's right to gun ownership is not unlimited.

Dane von Breichenruchardt, president of the Bill of Rights Foundation, said the city was attempting to make gun ownership as "difficult and restrictive as possible."

"We're going to be back in court. There is no doubt about that," he said.

Under terms of the emergency law, passed earlier this week by the D.C. Council, residents must obtain a city-issued handgun permit and may keep handguns only in their homes for self-defense purposes.

The permits require every gun owner to pass a written test and vision exam, submit the weapons for ballistic testing and offer proof of residency.

The provisions still rank as some of the toughest in the nation. But perhaps the most controversial aspect of the law, gun rights advocates say, mandates that gun owners keep their weapons unloaded, disassembled or secured with trigger locks, unless they face a "threat of immediate harm."

The National Rifle Association has signaled it also will challenge the new D.C. regulation, describing the law as extreme and in "complete defiance of the Supreme Court's decision."

"The current D.C. proposal requires the complete cooperation of the criminal," NRA spokesman Andrew Akulanandum. "It would require the criminal to call and tell you when they plan to come and attack you."

D.C. Assistant Police Chief Peter Newsham said the regulations can be "interpreted" in various ways. "But this isn't a 'gotcha' program. We're trying to accommodate people," he said.

When the doors opened to prospective gun owners at 7 a.m. Thursday, only one other applicant was waiting. Ron Jones, 33, said he had not yet purchased a handgun, but planned to get a start on the registration process.

"I'm interested in self-defense. It's our constitutional right. I'm here to exercise that right. The way things are now, with the kids and the mischief they are making, what are we supposed to do? They have the guns already," he said.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008, 10:07 AM
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GOD SAVE AMERICA because I dont think the thinking on this thread will
I'm sorry that your government does not trust the honest,law abiding citizen enough to allow you to defend yourselves against the criminals that do have guns.

Last edited by 392cobra; 07-18-2008 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:40 PM
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Hello from down under
I am born in New Zealand and currently live in Brisbane Australia. I spend a good deal of time in New Zealand, Australia and America (McAllen, Texas 2 weeks a month running a business in Reynosa Mexico).
In New Zealand gun laws are extremely tough only selected members of the police are allowed to carry (even). Public must go through an very extensive check program and can only carry in the boot (trunk) of the car and must be going to the range or country to shoot otherwise you are fined then jailed for repeat offences. Automatic and big bore hand guns also are completely outlawed. Carrying guns in any form are not publicly accepted. Arms must be locked away in secure safes and ammunition keep locked away seperately.Result bugger all crime involving guns. We dont need to defend ourselves against guns because they are not there in the numbers to be a problem.
However I suppose when you cant trust the Government to protect you because they are off showing others what to do you have no choice so can you tell me what guns I need to buy (to protect myself) when I am in Texas next week shopping in the La Plaza Mall.
It is a bloody worry guys. You should see the guys in Reynosa Mexico
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:24 PM
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Gun bans in Austraila have had the same results as in the UK and even in our Washington D.C..


Crime up Down Under
Since Australia's gun ban, armed robberies increase 45%
By Jon E. Dougherty
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com




Since Australia banned private ownership of most guns in 1996, crime has risen dramatically on that continent, prompting critics of U.S. gun control efforts to issue new warnings of what life in America could be like if Congress ever bans firearms.
After Australian lawmakers passed widespread gun bans, owners were forced to surrender about 650,000 weapons, which were later slated for destruction, according to statistics from the Australian Sporting Shooters Association.

The bans were not limited to so-called "assault" weapons or military-type firearms, but also to .22 rifles and shotguns. The effort cost the Australian government about $500 million, said association representative Keith Tidswell.

Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:


Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;

Assaults are up 8.6 percent;

Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent;

In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent;

In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily;

There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.

At the time of the ban, which followed an April 29, 1996 shooting at a Port Arthur tourist spot by lone gunman Martin Bryant, the continent had an annual murder-by-firearm rate of about 1.8 per 100,000 persons, "a safe society by any standards," said Tidswell. But such low rates of crime and rare shootings did not deter then-Prime Minister John Howard from calling for and supporting the weapons ban.
Since the ban has been in effect, membership in the Australian Sporting Shooters Association has climbed to about 112,000 -- a 200 percent increase.

Australian press accounts report that the half a million-plus figure of weapons turned in to authorities so far only represents a tiny fraction of the guns believed to be in the country.

According to one report, in March 1997 the number of privately-held firearms in Australia numbered around 10 million. "In the State of Queensland," for example, the report said only "80,000 guns have been seized out of a total of approximately 3 million, a tiny fraction."

And, said the report, 15 percent of the more than half a million guns collected came from licensed gun dealers.

Moreover, a black market allegedly has developed in the country. The report said about 1 million Chinese-made semi-automatics, "one type of gun specifically targeted by the new law," have been imported and sold throughout the country.

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, said the situation in Australia reminds him of Great Britain, where English lawmakers have passed similar restrictive gun control laws.

"In fact, when you brought up the subject of this interview, I didn't hear you clearly -- I thought you were talking about England, not Australia," Pratt told WorldNetDaily. "It's hard to tell the difference between them."

Pratt said officials in both countries can "no longer control what the criminals do," because an armed society used to serve as a check on the power and influence of the criminal element.

Worse, Pratt said he was "offended by people who say, basically, that I don't have a right to defend myself or my family." Specifically, during debates with gun control advocates like members of Handgun Control, Inc. or similar organizations, Pratt said he routinely asks them if they're "against self defense."

Most often, he said, "they don't say anything -- they just don't answer me. But occasionally I'll get one of them to admit it and say 'yes.'"

Pratt said, based on the examples of democracies that have enacted near-total bans on private firearm ownership, that the same thing could happen to Americans. His organization routinely researches and reports incidents that happen all over the country when private armed citizens successfully defend themselves against armed robbers or intruders, but "liberals completely ignore this reality."

Pratt, who said was scheduled to appear in a televised discussion later in the day about a shooting incident between two first graders in Michigan on Tuesday, said he was in favor of allowing teachers to carry weapons to protect themselves and their students on campus.

Pratt pointed to the example of a Pearl, Mississippi teacher who, in 1997, armed with his own handgun, was able to blunt the killing spree of Luke Woodham.

"By making schools and even entire communities 'gun free zones,' you're basically telling the criminal element that you're unarmed and extremely vulnerable," Pratt said.

Pratt also warned against falling into the gun registration trap.

"Governments will ask you to trust them to allow gun registration, then use those registration lists to later confiscate the firearms," he said. "It's happened countless times throughout history."

Sarah Brady, head of Handgun Control, Inc., issued a statement calling on lawmakers in Michigan and in Washington to pass more restrictive gun access laws.

"This horrible tragedy should send a clear message to lawmakers in Michigan and around the country: they should quickly pass child access prevention or 'safe storage' laws that make it a crime to leave a loaded firearm where it is accessible by children," Brady said.

Brady also blamed gun makers for the Michigan shooting.

"The responsibility for shootings like these do not stop at the hands of the gun owner," Brady said. "Why are ... gun makers manufacturing weapons that a six-year old child can fire? This makes no rational sense. When will gun makers realize that they bear a responsibility to make sure that their products do not mete out preventable deaths, and that they do not warrant nor deserve special protection from the law to avoid that burden? Instead of safeguarding the gun makers, we should be childproofing the guns."

In contrast to near-complete bans in Australia and Great Britain, many U.S. states have passed liberal concealed carry laws that allow private citizens to obtain a permit to carry a loaded gun at all times in most public places. According to Yale University researcher John R. Lott, formerly of the University of Chicago and a gun control analyst who has conducted the most extensive study on the impact of concealed carry laws in the nation's history, the more liberal the right to carry, the less violent crime occurs.

Lott, who examined a mass of crime data spanning decades in all 3,200-plus counties in the United States, concluded that the most important factor in the deterrence of violent crimes were increased police presence and longer jail sentences. However, his research also demonstrated that liberal concealed carry laws were at the top of the list of reasons violent crime has dropped steadily since those laws began to be enacted by state legislatures a decade ago.

The Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, a division of Handgun Control, Inc., disagreed with Lott's findings, as well as the overall assumption that a reduction in the availability of guns in society reduces violent crime.

"Using violent crime data provided by the FBI, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence determined that, on average over a five-year period, violent crime dropped almost 25 percent in states that limit or prohibit carrying concealed weapons," the Center said. "This compares with only a 11 percent drop in states with lax concealed carry weapons (CCW) laws. Moreover, states with some of the strongest laws against concealed weapons experienced the largest drops."

Without naming its source, the Center also claimed "a prominent criminologist from Johns Hopkins University has stated that Lott's study was so flawed that 'nothing can be learned of it,' and that it should not be used as the basis for policy-making."

In his most recent research, Lott noted a few examples of mass shootings in schools when teachers who were armed, albeit illegally, were able to prevent further loss of life among students indiscriminately targeted by other students with guns.

Ironically, both Lott and Handgun Control acknowledge that the reams of gun control laws on the books in Washington and in all 50 states have been ineffective in eradicating mass shootings or preventing children from bringing weapons to school. However, Lott's research indicates the criminal element has been successful in obtaining weapons despite widespread bans and gun control laws, while HCI continues to push for more laws that further restrict, license or eliminate handguns and long guns.
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Old 07-19-2008, 04:49 PM
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Yep exactly, Aussie is getting into bad shape also.
Many illegal guns still around (Government cant implement the laws it wants to also) and crime continues to grow. Where there is money to be made people are going to do what ever they can to justify themselves. Now I got a Cobra to make. I want to make it faster more powerful and quicker off the line than anyone else so I am safe.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macloft View Post
Now I got a Cobra to make. I want to make it faster more powerful and quicker off the line than anyone else so I am safe.
Sounds like a plan...Faster than a speeding bullet.
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:46 PM
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Dammit Fred I keep trying to read your emails and my eyes keep getting distracted by your basookas. That is a very nice pair you carry. Hopefully I will be in Texas with my family (including my Cobra) and I will meet you at a Cobra bash one day.
Cheers
Bruce
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