Verdict on current TKO 600 Transmission?

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by hssss

I have been biting my tongue not saying what I really thought. I have no interest pro/con related to Tremec or Gforce BUT. When I read the start of this thread the first thing that came to mind was that Tremec was attempting to do some damage control. This is the back cover on the current KITCAR mag. I see no mention of , but only in light cars.



I then compare the responses to this post.



http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=31831

http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

Hey guys this is essence of disingenuous. Thanks hssss for the research and graphic image. There is a huge disconnect between the message in the advertising and the message in the customer service. This is part and parcel to the reasons I said earlier I don't have good feelings about this Tremec stuff.

I really think the bad news is not new news to Tremec. Worse they apparently do nothing to correct the problem, encourage the use of the product in ways they later say is not proper and dump the financial responsibility for believing them on the user. When you do a search on Tremec + Problems or TKO *** + problems it is apparent the company has had these problems and others for a long time.

Again, what's wrong with this picture?


Ed

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Scott,

Your point is well made. I guess the part of this whole thing that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up is the response from the distributor and apparent lack of response from Tremec. Daryl summed it up well in his post, how does the company respond when I have a problem.

Jimi G's points are also good. The unit may not have been suitable for the application. This brings us back to a distributor problem again, the distributor should have know this and steered the customer differently. He didn't. When we make choices based upon input from a trusted advisor presumably they will guide us correctly and not allow the loss of a sale to influence their advice.

For what it is worth I would not expect a TKO 600 to be close strength wise to a Jerico, Liberty, G-Force or any other race unit. That was not the design purpose and they don't cost as much! I also don't expect to have the unit designed/manufactured/assembled in a fashion (i.e. misaligned gears) that is inconsistent with industry practice for similar product or norms other manufacturers and Tremec typically adhere to in their other products.

The fact the distributor recommended it and sold it knowing the application and the lack of suitability, in fact made a special kit for the application, speaks volumes about the distributor. To later blame the failure on the customer begs the question what's wrong with this picture? I'll give Tremec the benefit of the doubt and say they didn't come up with the same failure analysis as the distributor. But, they have been unnecessarily quite and absent from the problem resolution process.

Still, no good feelings on these issues.

Ed

O.k... we have been sitting by quietly observing since the whole fiasco started. Many on here and the other 3 forums that fordfan went to to manipulate us jumped on the band wagon and ASSUMED an awful lot.
Fact is, when we talk to a potential customer, the FIRST questoin that is asked is what are you using the car for? Are you drag racing? Are you running slicks? If the answer to any of these questions are YES, we advise against it.
The TKO is not designed for heavy drag racing applications. If you are running on slicks you run the chance of breaking the tranny. If you are running in a Mopar B or E-body(heavy car) with slicks, buy a Lenco, Jerico or the likes because a TKO will not stand up to that abuse.
Fact: When Fordfan initially gave us his information, we were told it was for street use and an occasional run down the track on STREET tires not slicks.
Fact: he ran down the track on SLICKS(not what he told us he was going to do) and the tranny broke. Did he miss the shift? Who knows, only he does. What really happened? No one except Fordfan knows.
Fact: Did we speculate it to be a missed shift? YES. To us the evidence pointed to that
Fact:Contrary to some of the beliefs here, we had no knowledge of a mis-alignment in the gearset. Some of you even went as far as to say that we did know and were told by Tremec to "keep quiet". COME ON! That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on here. Not to mention, a very LARGE assumption.
Fact:The original story we got from Fordfan was not what happened. The "story" changed before our eyes and YOURS.
Fact: Our Initial offer to him was for him to buy the parts(at cost) and we fix if for free and ship it back. Keep in mind, this was after the truth came out and he admitted to running slicks on the track. Our warranty, as well as Tremec's, is VOID under those circumstances but we were willing to make an exception and fix it at no cost to him.
The bottom line is you guys are going to continue this "arguement" regardless of what is posted and that's o.k.. That's your right and it is a public forum. Do not make assumptions about us or how we conduct business. You don't work here and don't know.
The Cobra's are what, half of the weight of a Mopar? How many other failures have you guys read about or experienced? As someone on here stated earlier, "you could probably count it on one hand or even one finger?
For the money, the TKO is a really good option for many guys/gals out there and will continue to be regardless of what you say or do.
O.K. Let the flaming start
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[Excaliber]

Do bear in mind that not everyone is 'dumping' on Keisler Engineering. While it remains a controversial issue there appears to be support for Tremec\Keisler, as well as dissent. Which is typical for most any manufacturer\supplier, you can't keep all the people happy all the time.

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Do bear in mind that not everyone is 'dumping' on Keisler Engineering. While it remains a controversial issue there appears to be support for Tremec\Keisler, as well as dissent. Which is typical for most any manufacturer\supplier, you can't keep all the people happy all the time.

Understood. I'm not even doing "damage control" here, just trying to get the facts straight. They seemed to have been "clouded" by several people in this thread.

Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[RICK LAKE]

rj8806 Rich I have a couple of questions. Is there an alignment problem with the gears and shafts? Under NORMAL driving conditions in any car no running slicks this trans holds up fine. I have replaced 4 t-56 trans in GTO's 2-3 gear shifting is stripping and breaking the gears. 2 cars are hard driven the other 2 are show cars. I see an alignment problem and weak gears that are manufactured in GOD KNOW WHERE COUNTRY. The metal is softer than in the 60-70's. Your own tech guy was saying a 900hp turbo car uses this trans stock. Later he says it was blueprinted. Stock is stock. You sell a blueprinted opition for this trans don't you??? Why?? I bought a 6-spd richmond when they first came out and installed it in my car, motor is a FE 452 motor 368hp
448 tork. the rating on this trans is 450HP and torque. I had a shifting problem both from a clutch problem and the trans wouldn't power shift. Called Richmond and was told about this. I went to G-Force and told them my HP and that the car was for mostly racing, they sold me a clutchless 5 speed with a custom gear set. Trans makes a little noise because of the straight gearing but with a 1k HP and torque rating this is expected. I talked to a pro car builder with a cobra and a tko 600 trans and he is having a shift problem with only 200 miles on the car. The motor is maken over 700hp. this may be causing the shifting problem. He understood that this trans may be over powered and is looking at another trans. Here's the bottom line If you are going to sell this trans maybe you need to ask for application and Tork and HP ratings on the motor and wieght of the car. If people are going to race or beat on there cars, ( HERE"S WHERE COMMON SENSE COMES IN) sell them a blue printed trans right from the start. This would have stopped this long thread. There are 3 sides to every story. Your's,there's and the truth. I am gald you stood behind tremec and helped Fordfan69. This show your company not tremec is a standup act. I hope you and your company and family have a nice holiday season. Rick Lake

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

rj8806 Rich I have a couple of questions. Is there an alignment problem with the gears and shafts? Under NORMAL driving conditions in any car no running slicks this trans holds up fine. I have replaced 4 t-56 trans in GTO's 2-3 gear shifting is stripping and breaking the gears. 2 cars are hard driven the other 2 are show cars. I see an alignment problem and weak gears that are manufactured in GOD KNOW WHERE COUNTRY. The metal is softer than in the 60-70's. Your own tech guy was saying a 900hp turbo car uses this trans stock. Later he says it was blueprinted. Stock is stock. You sell a blueprinted opition for this trans don't you??? Why?? I bought a 6-spd richmond when they first came out and installed it in my car, motor is a FE 452 motor 368hp
448 tork. the rating on this trans is 450HP and torque. I had a shifting problem both from a clutch problem and the trans wouldn't power shift. Called Richmond and was told about this. I went to G-Force and told them my HP and that the car was for mostly racing, they sold me a clutchless 5 speed with a custom gear set. Trans makes a little noise because of the straight gearing but with a 1k HP and torque rating this is expected. I talked to a pro car builder with a cobra and a tko 600 trans and he is having a shift problem with only 200 miles on the car. The motor is maken over 700hp. this may be causing the shifting problem. He understood that this trans may be over powered and is looking at another trans. Here's the bottom line If you are going to sell this trans maybe you need to ask for application and Tork and HP ratings on the motor and wieght of the car. If people are going to race or beat on there cars, ( HERE"S WHERE COMMON SENSE COMES IN) sell them a blue printed trans right from the start. This would have stopped this long thread. There are 3 sides to every story. Your's,there's and the truth. I am gald you stood behind tremec and helped Fordfan69. This show your company not tremec is a standup act. I hope you and your company and family have a nice holiday season. Rick Lake

Rick:
I have heard of NOTHING in the way of an alignment problem except for what I have read here. I do not work for Tremec and will not go there with an answer.
Truth is we have been in business since 1999. I have been here for over 3 years now and until Fordfan broke his, I have never HEARD FROM anyone who broke a TKO.
I have a TKO-500 in my Mustang and have had ZERO issues with it. Granted, I don't run slicks and Mustangs are known for not getting traction but I still drive it like I stole it.
We have 1000's of our conversion kits out there with no issues whatsoever. Many of them are E-bodies with 600+hp and tq and yes, MANY are even running slicks. No ISSUES. Are they living on borrowed time? Who knows? We told them up front the TKO is not designed for that kind of abuse and they bought anyway and are very happy with the way TKO performs.
Like I stated in my previous post, The VERY 1ST things we ask is:
1. What's the application?
2. How much Horsepower AND Torque
3. What is the intended use?
4. If your taking it to the track, are you planning on running slicks?
5. Do you have future plans for power upgrades?
If they answer yes to #4, we WARN them up front that the warranty will be voided and the TKO is not designed for that kind of use.
As for the 900hp turbo car, that was a Getrag 6speed in a Supra. Completely different trans and company. It is not made by Tremec.
Everyone on here as heard Fordfans story(stories) and ours. Draw your own conclusions just don't cloud the facts or make false, ridiculous assumptions(that was not directed at you Rick) and then smear us over the internet based on those false assumptions.
Rick... May you and your family have a Merry Christmas as well Thank you.

Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[scott coyle]

Richard,

I am glad you tell them the warranty is void if they run slicks. I do wonder a little bit about the add earlier in this post from tremec with a mustang doing a wheel stand. It has to be running slicks to do that and probably a 10 second car, sort of misleading, unless they clarify it by weight, meaning it is under 3000 pounds. Tremec is sort of laying a trap for the distributor with that type of add.

Scott

[Jim Vander Wal]

Richard - Keisler Engineering

I have a TKO-600 purchased in about July 2004 fropm D&D in Wixom, MI.

This trans was apart last weekend to correct a leak from the input shaft. During the process we measured a difference in alignment of an upper and lower gear. The centerlines of the two gears are approximately .120" off of each other. Both gears have about .120" of non contact areas.

Now I don't know if this is a problem or not, some here seem to think that it may be. I'll run it and drive it and then fix it or throw it away when the time comes. Whatever happens, whether it good or bad or whether it will or won't break is of little concern until it breaks. I do look at it and think that there has been a design compromise and the designers were, for whatever reason forced, to make that compromise.

The fact is is that there is a misalignment. The question is is it a problem and will the misalingment alone cause a failure.

I'm not trying to go after anyone but the misalignment is there and it is obvious.

Jim
SPF 1855 in Grand Rapids, MI
22k miles on the street, road course and a few drag passes.

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by scott coyle

Richard,

I am glad you tell them the warranty is void if they run slicks. I do wonder a little bit about the add earlier in this post from tremec with a mustang doing a wheel stand. It has to be running slicks to do that and probably a 10 second car, sort of misleading, unless they clarify it by weight, meaning it is under 3000 pounds. Tremec is sort of laying a trap for the distributor with that type of add.

Scott

I receive 2 different Mustang mags monthly and I too have seen the add. I agree, I have never seen a car on street tires pull the front wheels. What I do not know is if the TKO has been "race" prepped. I do not work for Tremec and cannot say one way or another.
I do know that we have a "partner" in Florida, Promotion Performance Products, that does race prep TKO's with great success. Their "tranny's" hold several NMRA records using Mustangs and TKO's and are running 8.xx 1/4 mile times and pulling wheel stands too. They also are shifting at well over 7000rpm. We also offer that option to potential customers once thier intentions are made known to us.
Look, Like I stated, Keisler has been in business since 1999. We are not in the business to decieve, mis-lead or mis-represent the capabilities of the TKO or our kit. We wouldn't have lasted this long if that was our practice. While I cannot give numbers, we continue to sell and have satisified customers world wide. I spend countless hours on the forums offering technical advice to anyone I can help. Until the original Fordfan thread started here, I didn't even know this forum existed. I am not one to jump on a thread and start bashing guys for their opinion. That's one of the reasons I have stayed away from this thread for the first 4 pages. It wasn't until I couldn't take the "clouded" and false assumptions, that I felt the need to post and try and set the facts straight.
I realize I opened us up to flaming and re-hashing what was already said I just hope everyone involved and reading can think about this logically and not fall prey to the ones mis-leading this thread.
A Tremec TKO is a Tremec TKO no matter where you buy it. They have several distributors nationwide and we all sell the same tranny. The main difference is the way the shift position is achieved. That is the only part of the TKO that we modify. The rest of our kits have been engineered by degreed engineers to fit each particular application with minimal(none in a lot of cases) modifications to the car.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[craigayl]

Richard

What really got me going on this topic was the statement from KEISLERGENE. He stated; "Simply put, Mr. Detranova missed a shift and engaged the gear only halfway when he released the clutch, causing the gear teeth to fail. There is absolutely no evidence of this in the photos and anyone who knows anything about the mechanics of this transmission knows that statement is way off base. What is someone to think when this kind of a statement comes from a company representative? It truly appears that there is a cover up and you are fabricating stories. To top it off, through all of this, no one from Keisler ever tried to retract that statement or say it was a mistake..

If you or anyone form Keisler would have simply stated that it is your opinion the torque capabilities of this transmission were exceeded, I'm sure you would have gotten much less grief. You could even be upfront about the obvious design flaw. It may be that this transmission will perform to its advertised specs with this flaw, but wouldn’t it be nice if it was corrected?? Maybe the torque specs could be raised!

Craig

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by Jim Vander Wal

Richard - Keisler Engineering

I have a TKO-600 purchased in about July 2004 fropm D&D in Wixom, MI.

This trans was apart last weekend to correct a leak from the input shaft. During the process we measured a difference in alignment of an upper and lower gear. The centerlines of the two gears are approximately .120" off of each other. Both gears have about .120" of non contact areas.

Now I don't know if this is a problem or not, some here seem to think that it may be. I'll run it and drive it and then fix it or throw it away when the time comes. Whatever happens, whether it good or bad or whether it will or won't break is of little concern until it breaks. I do look at it and think that there has been a design compromise and the designers were, for whatever reason forced, to make that compromise.

The fact is is that there is a misalignment. The question is is it a problem and will the misalingment alone cause a failure.

I'm not trying to go after anyone but the misalignment is there and it is obvious.

Jim
SPF 1855 in Grand Rapids, MI
22k miles on the street, road course and a few drag passes.

Jim:
I do understand what you and many here have said about the mis-alignment. Truth is, I am not an Engineer, never claimed to be. I am not in a position to answer that with an educated answer. Obviously I see the same pictures you have on here and have read the same "theories" you have. I am not educated in mechanical engineering and don't feel I am qualified to answer that. Like I also stated, we have 1000's of kits out there and to date, Fordfan was the only one I've HEARD FROM that broke a TKO.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by craigayl

Richard

What really got me going on this topic was the statement from KEISLERGENE. He stated; "Simply put, Mr. Detranova missed a shift and engaged the gear only halfway when he released the clutch, causing the gear teeth to fail. There is absolutely no evidence of this in the photos and anyone who knows anything about the mechanics of this transmission knows that statement is way off base. What is someone to think when this kind of a statement comes from a company representative? It truly appears that there is a cover up and you are fabricating stories. To top it off, through all of this, no one from Keisler ever tried to retract that statement or say it was a mistake..

If you or anyone form Keisler would have simply stated that it is your opinion the torque capabilities of this transmission were exceeded, I'm sure you would have gotten much less grief. You could even be upfront about the obvious design flaw. It may be that this transmission will perform to its advertised specs with this flaw, but wouldn’t it be nice if it was corrected?? Maybe the torque specs could be raised!

Craig

Actually, in my post at the top of this page I did state "Did we speculate that it was a mis-shift?" "Yes, that is what the evidence pointed to".
In my opinion, the torque capabilities of the TKO WERE NOT EXCEEDED. The shock load was exceeded but not the torque. As JimiG stated and as we have told all of our customers, Tremec has hit the TKO with over 1100ft/lbs and it held up. How they performed this, I don't know, I wasn't there. Just relaying what I've been told.
There is no way we can "be up front about the design flaw". Keisler did not design, Engineer or manufacture the TKO. It is not our place to say whether it is flawed or not. There is/was no "cover up" on our part. We were simply stating our opinions as to the cause of failure. No one except for Fordfan(and possibly by-standers at the track that day) no for sure if he missed the shift at WOT or not, the point is, the warranty was voided because of the circumstances yet we still offered to cover the labor and shipping back to him from the beginning and parts at cost.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[rj8806]

Look, I certainly don't want to "re-visit" the pissing contest that ensued in the original thread, I simply want the facts and assumptions about Keisler straight and not clouded. I cannot debate whether there is a design flaw or not, that is Tremec's responsibility. they continue to sell tons of these and I cannot find any evidence of a similar situation on any other forum. I have not seen any other threads about a broke TKO caused by Mis-alignment????

Richard

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by craigayl

Richard

What really got me going on this topic was the statement from KEISLERGENE. He stated; "Simply put, Mr. Detranova missed a shift and engaged the gear only halfway when he released the clutch, causing the gear teeth to fail. There is absolutely no evidence of this in the photos and anyone who knows anything about the mechanics of this transmission knows that statement is way off base. What is someone to think when this kind of a statement comes from a company representative? It truly appears that there is a cover up and you are fabricating stories. To top it off, through all of this, no one from Keisler ever tried to retract that statement or say it was a mistake..

If you or anyone form Keisler would have simply stated that it is your opinion the torque capabilities of this transmission were exceeded, I'm sure you would have gotten much less grief. You could even be upfront about the obvious design flaw. It may be that this transmission will perform to its advertised specs with this flaw, but wouldn’t it be nice if it was corrected?? Maybe the torque specs could be raised!

Craig

Well this thread heated up again!

Craig's issues are identical to many of ours.

It is frustrating and frankly unbelievable that a distributor does not know that the countershaft and mainshaft gears are constant mesh and cannot experience a sliding partial engagement that upon clutch release would damage the gears. This type of missed shift or incomplete engagement or even marginal contact always shows up as mechanical damage to the synchronizer teeth. Careful inspection of the photo of third gear shows none of the mechanical damage to the synchronizer teeth that accompany partial engagement or forced application without engagement, only damage to the gear teeth.

The gear simply experienced an ultimate strength failure where the load applied exceeded the component strength. As a repair center that sees many Tremec boxes both sold and maintained Keisler had to know this. Keisler also had to be aware of the misalignment of the gears. It is frankly incredulous that Keisler could see the insides of as many TKOs as they sell and maintain as both a distributor and a factory authorized service center and never see the misalignment. If you give Keisler the benefit of the doubt and say they have done all this depot maintenance, repair and blueprinting without seeing the misalignment then you have to ask yourself is this the type of product/service provider I should be doing business with? Perhaps I should be looking for an alternative product/service provider who pays attention to what he is working on.

If you look at the failed gearsets in Fordfan's box to determine cause you are looking directly at two misaligned gears. How can you possibly not see the misalignment. In calls to Tremec, Tremec indicated they were aware of the misalignment, it was not originally intended but was required for chip escape during manufacturing on the one peice countershaft. The misalignment was represented to me to have been present on all TKO-500s, TKO-600s and potentially other family members depending on when they were manufactured. The design drawings the individual, at Tremec, that I spoke to looked at showed the offset to be 0.149" and this is consistent with Fordfan's 0.140" measurement.

How can Keisler work on these boxes since 1999 and never observe the offset even when looking at Fordfan's box where it is centered in your field of vision. Moreover, if Keisler has no qualified engineering opinion how is it possible that they can have a failure analysis opinion which is a very rigorous engineering discipline? These types of conflicting statements from the distributor are quite troubling. Craig's comments could not be more true, "It truly appears that there is a cover up and you are fabricating stories."

In the end The Keisler problem simply distills down to are these the type of people you want to do business with. The Tremec problem is a seperate and bigger issue. They clearly have known of this issue (misalignment) over several generations of the transmission. They also have chosen to do nothing about it.

The 3550/TKO family of transmissions has a colorful history of problems that show up when you do an Internet search on Tremec + Problems or TKO *** + problems. The treatment of the users in these posts is anything but encouraging and it is certainly long standing.

The statement that racing usage voids any manufacturer / reseller warranty obligations flies in the face of their advertisement that says, "Track Tested, Race Proven - Whether it is the endurance needed for Road Racing or the sheer strength necessary to win at the drags, there's a TREMEC transmission built for you." Additionally as someone else pointed out I don't think there are any Mustangs that can pick the front tires off the ground like the photo in their advertisement - on street tires.

The bad news for Tremec is not new news for them. It is only new news for guys like us who have not had 10+ years of experience with the problem. I suspect that most disadvantaged users basically gave up with a you can't fight city hall attitude and maybe you can't. Maybe it is better to pack up our tent and go elsewhere. If that is the case we should do our level best to prevent others like ourselves from being similarily disadvantaged by companies and products with problems like these.

Even though Keisler has made some incredible statements for an authorized reseller and repair depot at least they commented. I am not sure I believe let alone agree with a number of their statements but they did comment. The church mouse in this whole event has been Tremec and likely for good reason. They knew and did nothing!

Ed

[Jamo]

Ok, we've been extremely hands off on this and the original thread, but now it appears folks are talking in circles and not even listening to each other.

When someone says they "cannot comment" on something they didn't design or hasn't seen, it means just that. As noted, Keisler has not been shy in responding, and that should be met with thanks. The mfg has not, which is their choice of course.

There has been some important information in these threads far beyond the 15 minutes of fame due the original poster, and that's why they have stayed in this forum instead of Consumer Watch, or been closed.

But that does not mean this will become the new version of BB v SB with one thread running into the next with the same arguments over and over again.

So, here's the deal...unless you have something new to add, don't.

Thanks for everyone's expected cooperation.

Jamo-Moderator
Owner of an Unbreakable Toploader

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Owner of an Unbreakable Toploader

And therein lies the simple answer. Classic strength and simplicity.

[SPF2245]

1900 miles in nearly 2 years without a missed shift or any problems. Plenty of hard driving along with stop and go traffic.

[SPF2245]

One other thought, I've owned a couple different cars in my life...with plenty of HP to please. And regardless of which application, tranny problems will always show up at some point. Put 400+ HP through anything long enough and I've broke it...want a tranny that won't break, buy a Honda and move on.

[Jamo]

Somebody make a bellhousing to hook up an FE to a Honda trans?

[eschaider]

The jokes are cute guys but we know that 40 year old design Ford Toploaders and 40 year old design Chrysler A-833 transmissions don't have the frequency, type of failures or power train component alignment problems we are seeing here. They also weren't sold with the aggressive performance message the Tremec units were sold with.

The buyer beware admonition is certainly not suspended for transmission purchases but at the same time you as a consumer end up relying primarily on the representations of the manufacturer and the reseller untill enough units are in service to assess real world performance.

This is the real world performance assessment we are going through and I for one think it is important so that future potential buyers can make an informed decision prior to purchase.

Lets the facts say what they will say. Isn't that one of the benefits of the website?


Ed

p.s. Jamo, my apologies for my last post I was not focused in the post and tended to repeat myself. Sorry I ddn't have time to do a better job but wanted to get the point made.