Should I go with Webbers?

[SHTMDWN PA]

I always learn so much here. I could use some advice from the experts.

I have been thinking about putting a set of Webbers on my Everett Morrison and any suggestions would be appreciated (where to get a set up, IDF’s or IDA’s). It is primarily a street car. Today it has a Holley 750 with a turkey pan on an Edelbrock 427 intake.

The engine is:

An original Ford 427 Side Oiler
Stroked using a SCJ crank that is internally balanced
Bore is .005 over original – no sleeves
JE pistons with LR Rods
Crower cam PN 16332 degreed at 105 deg CL
Intake duration 300 deg lift .577
Exhaust duration 310 deg lift .591
Edelbrock aluminum heads PN 6007
76cc chamber
2.09” intake 1.66” exhaust
Dove roller rockers with end stand
Header with the standard 4 into 1 sidepipe

Trans is a Ford big in big out toploader

Jag 3:31 power lock rear

Thanks guys.

[RICK LAKE]

SHTMDWN PA The motor is fine for cubic size. The 48mm will run out of air at about 6,500-6,700 rpms. The camshaft doesn't have enought seperation with running webbers You want a min of 112 LSA. The camshafts webber sell are all in the114-115 lsa numbers. Webbers are sensitive to vacuum more than your Holley because the vacuum signal for the holley comes from all the cylinders. Webbers signal comes only mostly from than cylinder. There are small balance tubes to help with idle. When setup right you will get a wider power range with a 20-30 HP pickup. I 15-20ft. pound of torque also. The cool look is great. The other problem is running screens or filters on them to keep out road debries. If you want to talk more on this, send me a p-m here I'm in NJ we can talk in the evening. Rick L.

[Terry Brown]

This pretty much takes care of the screen/filter issue. Good Luck!!

[zimmy]

If you want the ultimate help from one of the nicest guys in the business, why not go directly to the source?

Jim Inglese is back in the business. I got more help and learned more in a couple of emails and calls then I have from the past 5 years of internet discussions. (And I never bought anything from him!!)

Here is his web site and you can get all the contact info from there. He is selling set ups as well as tuning. He is great and my car runs great - now.

http://www.jiminglese.com/index.html

[Caprimaniac]

Although Rick have a point in LSA- numbers, vacum/idle and carb size, I would say these are not important issues. Your engine will run great although a larger LS probably would make a better idle, less fuel consumption and maybe less spittering. (I run 108 or110 myself). The idle with separate runners are a little tricky, but set it quite high (1000- 1500) and no problems. Carb size are no big issue. I run 48 IDF's and rev freely to 9000 rpm (although a 347, not a 427 FE..) If wooried, move to 52/ 51 mm Inglese/ Empi whatever IDA's.

What issues I think you will have to struggle with is: Time it takes to jet & tune the carbs to utimate set-up. It i timeconsuming & sometimes frustrating. Although, if you buy a new complete kit and it is jetted for your usage (rpm, engine size, etc) there are hopes it will be a smaller task... Once it's up & running you will be a happy owner...

I will advice you to go with the IDA's as you have a little more flexibility in choosing carbs & also (may) have better tuneability. I have experience with the IDF's only, and find no "dead spots" around 3000- 3500 rpm as the IDA- owners talk about. But then again, I have no first hand experience on the IDA's.

These are my opinions.
RS

[priobe]

I have been running my Webers now for about 2 years. My LSA is 112 240 /245 @ 50.

I have no problems at idle or any other range in the RPM. SPark plugs are dark brown( could be alittle lighter).

Idle is set to 800 and could idle down to 650 or even 500 if I wanted.

My opionion is go with them, grap some books understand how they work and be prepared to learn alot.

I would side with Zimmy, go with Jim Inglese. If you decide to go with someone else DONT!
Your better off doing it on your own. Everyone else will use your setup as experiment.

As for running out of air with the 48 mm. I disagree.

Again this is my opinion, and mine runs good.

[zimmy]

Be sure to use the above stated link. You want "Jim Inglese" not just Inglese. If you search internet on Inglese you will get the new Inglese at Comp Cams, not Jim. Big difference.

Jim started this business when he put Webers on his original 427 Cobra. He had no one to ask so he learned it by himself. His choice of jets and tubes is based on "Cobra" experience - not guessing. His suggestions were different from all others and made my car run very well and strongly.

Make no mistake - he is the man to talk to.

[priobe]

Zimmy,

What chokes are you running currently?

[SHTMDWN PA]

Zimmy,

I really appreciate the info. Talked to Jim who was glad to hear he was highly thought of on the forum.

What cam do you have in your 427?

Jack

[Johan]

This warning label was in my Lola when I bought it and you should give it serious consideration prior to making your decision to do business with Inglese.

[zimmy]

Priobe (and others):

Here is what I am currently running.

42mm chokes
65 idle jets/ 100 idle holders
165 mains/ F5 emulsion tubes/160 air correctors (Was using 170 mains on Jim's suggestion, but broke one so I went to 165s)
55 bypass valves

My Cam is Crane Cam #F-248/3334-12

Duration of 248 deg int/exh @ 0.050 lift
Lobe center 0f 110 deg, 24 deg overlap

454 ci center oiler with Edelbrock heads. MSD dist and 6AL with 20 deg intial and 38 deg total timing all in by 2800.

(Will be going to F11 tubes when I get a job so I can afford them. Will bring in mains a bit earlier that will work better with our light cars per Jim). May also go to a 60 bypass valve, but right now the 55 seems okay.

Decel backfire will be finally corrected when I get my job and can afford the Remflex gaskets for the collectors to eliminate the discovered exhaust leaks. (Made to go away by turning idle mixture screws a bit to cover the problem by running idle circuit a bit rich. No backfires but a bit sluggish down low.)

One big critical improvement that came from Jim was setting the float heights accurately. Struggled for years trying to do it the traditional way that has been described by all forever. Here is what Jim suggested and it worked easily and very well:

1. Make a gage to measure the 5.5 mm height of the float above the carb body. ( I made one out of plexiglass. You could have one made by a local machine shop if necessary).
2. Remove the cover screws on the 2 carbs on one side of the car with the exception of 2 screws per carb.
3. Run the car for about a minute or so to be sure that the fuel bowls are full.
4. Stop the car and remove the remaining screws. Carefully remove the 2 covers of the carbs.
5. Now measure the actual float level using your Go/No Go gage for the 5.5 mm height.

You will be able to see immediately if you are getting the correct on-the-car float height. This method accounts for the needle valve variations, etc. If needed just raise or lower the tang setting as needed. Replace the covers with the 2 screws per carb, start the car for a minute, shut off and check again. Repeat if necessary. When done - do the other side. It actually works very well, quickly and gives you a great sense of confidence that they are finally right!

Once I got the floats right and replaced the 0 bypass with the 55s, the hot carb drip has been greatly reduced to almost non-existent.

There you go! All I can say is - Thanks, Jim! If you talk to him - listen and do what he says. He has been there (with his "real" Cobra) and knows of what he speaks.

Let me know if I can help anyone.

[SHTMDWN PA]

Thanks for all the help. Cam and webers are on order (from Jim). I'll post some pics when they go on.

[zimmy]

Congrats! I don't think that you will regret the decision. Very glad you went with JIm for the project. He will not disappoint. He is a true gentleman and I can't believe that you will find anyone with more Cobra - Weber knowledge than Jim. Can't wait to hear of the results and to see the pictures. Good luck.

[priobe]

Shtmdwn,

What are you specs on the cam? I am sure Jim will dial you in

[SHTMDWN PA]

Priobe,

Went with Zimmy's Crane above but it has 112 not 110 lobe seperation. I liked the lift & duration compared to what I have today. 24 vs my 41 degree overlap should work well with IDA's.

[priobe]

You should be happy with this setup. I have a 245/250 @ .050 112 lope sep.

I am running a 70 idle air with a 60 idle jet. 40 choke

The fumes at idle are almost perfect.

I am tempted to drop in the 42's with the same config to see what will happen.

I am thinking the 65 might be alittle to fat for me.

Zimmy,

How is you mixture with the 42's and 65idle jet / 100 holders?

[zimmy]

Hey Priobe:

It has been a while. Hope you are well.

Let me see if I can answer your question. The 42 throats are great. The setup that Jim Inglese helped me do runs great. I am pretty sure that the 65 idle jet with 100 holders will run well with the proper A/F ratio. Right now I am running the idle circuit a bit rich on the mixture screws (1 1/4 turns out) to eliminate the decel backfire. It should lean out to just right when put back to 3/4 - 1 turns.

I had my exhaust system completely redone this past year. The flanges were ground flat to mate to the exhaust header. I also had the loose slip fit 4 into 1 collectors cut out and replaced with welded collector plates. Currently I have leaks at the collectors. I need to remove the system, rewrap the pipes with new exhaust wrap, and replace the header gaskets and the collector gaskets with the Remflex gaskets. Since that all costs money and I lost my job back in July of 2009, I will have to wait. Therefore, I run the idle circuit rich for now.

Besides fixing the backfires, running a bit rich makes the car a bit sluggish in the early RPMs. The car really runs strong when you get into the mains. When I am working again, I will try the F11 tubes which Jim says work very good with our light cars and will bring the mains in a bit earlier for more power.

[priobe]

Hey Zimmy,

All is well here, thanks for asking. I am running the F11 tubes and have tried quit abit of tubes (F7, F16, F2, F14) ?The F11 are definitly the best, for my setup least.

As for idle jets, I am running 60 fuel and 70 idle holders w/ 40 mm chokes.

The mixture at dead stop idle is in the 15.1. As soon as I pull off mixture drops to 13.8. As I move in to the transition I use to have a slight garble with the 150 mains and dropped them down to 145. This cleared up the garble. My air jet is a 200 which I am thinking of droping to 180. I am think it may be running lean at higher RPM. Before changing anything onece again I am going to recheck my timing. Total timing is 34. Itial is 15.

I am thinking of bumping up my timing to 18 - 20 which will then increase my total advance. It feels as if the car wants more timing then where is currently is.

All in All I would rate the car at 85% tuned. Its just that it is running so good right now I am afraid to make changes.

I have spoken to Jim a few times and he has suggested to drop the air to 165 and the mains to 170. I am thinking this will make the mains too rich. This did not seem right to me but then again he is the MAN!

I will try methods first and if unseccessful return back to where I am am now.If all is better after returning to starting point I will then try Jim's suggestion.

[zimmy]

Priobe:

I would definitely increase your timing. I run 20 initial with 38 total all in by 3000. Try it. You'll like it.

When Jim said to run a much smaller air corrector (160 from the 195 I had been running) I was doubtful. It really picked up. You can always go back to what you have now.

With all the time we've both put in, what have you got to lose? Remember - Jim's experience was built on his own 427 Cobra; not racing VWs or big heavy cars. I also think that you'll like the extra umph from the 42mm throats. Our engines need as much as they can get. That is why you'll have to increase the main to 165 or 170. More air in. I'm not sure I remember your engine specs but it probably isn't too different from mine. (Although mine is a stroked 454 now, but should be good setup for you).

Let me know what you try and how it works out. See ya!