Big Block got smoked by a...

[ffindling]

Small turbocharged engines can be wickedly powerful. The BMW M12/13 engine was probably the most powerful ever fielded in F/1. It was a 1.5 litre 4 cylinder that could digest incredible amounts of boost. In qualifying trim, the
engine was said to produce around 1200 hp running at +5 bar of boost. In race trim, the little engine put out 850 - 900 hp.
Of course, this generated a <i>lot</i> of
heat, so a large intercooler was required
and an extremely rich fuel mixture was used to carry off the excess heat. It made
for a fire belching display as the turbo over-run lit off and blew the unspent fuel
out the exhaust. It was pretty amazing for
an engine based on a cast-iron production
block. The Supra DOHC in-line 6 while not
quite the legend as the BMW M12/13 was is
well suited for high-boost turbocharging and getting 2000 hp out of one in race
trim is not that difficult. Cubic inches may have ruled the day years ago, but
the turbo technology that was honed in
the 80's changed all that.

.....Fred

[Cobrabill]

Jdog-i wasn't questioning your numbers.Just that the they seem really low for a 474 inch motor,as i was make just a tad bit more with a .17 over 427.

I was of the same thinking as some here.Untill a 72 240Z with a turbod 3.1 liter motor just blew me away.Last time i was beat like that was in high school while i was driving my parents SW.

Pissed me off so bad,i bought his car.

600 foot pounds and 450HP when the clutch went away.Believe it.

[MysteryTrain]

jdog,

Actually, if I remember correctly, that Supra is actually in the Silicon Valley area in NoCal. Not so far from you. Maybe when your motor is done, you can hunt him down and show us the video.

Fred,

My sentiments exactly. There are lots of ways to go fast. And "go fast" means alot of different things to different people. F1 engines with crazy-dizzy RPM's, massive bore & stroke of dragsters, small block v-8s of oval track stock cars, small motors with big boost, and then there's endurance racing . . . big cubes is just one method of getting there. However, to my mind, the difference is in the dollars. I see rich kids whose dentist/executive daddies buy them Acuras, Infinitis, Supras, and the money to sink into customizing them, and they spend sick, sick amounts of money to make them into 10 second 1/4 mile cars. And they can. On the other hand, I met a young mechanic who scraped together enough money to buy a worn out El Camino with a 454, spent six months taking the motor apart and fixing her up, and that old rust bucket with with drag slicks just destroyes the local decal-graphics-ground-effects-laden supercharged four and six cylinder cars. Even some with Nitrous. And that kid probably spent less than 1/4 on his car than those others. Granted, the other guys' rides draw all the looks, but it warmed my heart to know the blue-collar do it yourselfer smoked the silver spoon imports.

Cobrabill,
What were you driving before the Cobra that got wasted by the 240z?

MT

[S.Paulhus]

Hey jdog, I don't get to the board much, so this question may have been asked already, but I have seen your motor and I would like to see your shelby when i'ts done. Any news as to arrival date.

[Cobrabill]

72 455HO GTO

[jdog]

No they still haven't started on my car yet, hopefull it will be sometime soon.

jdog

[MysteryTrain]

Lets not forget that the fastest quartermile on record for an IRS car is a Supra - somehwere in the 7's. Not a Cobra, not a Viper, but a Japanese made Supra.

Curt,

I saw an ad in a magazine that said the fastest 1/4 time for a street legal car with street tires was a Mustang (looked like an 89 LX). The same ad posted the record for an import on street tires, a Supra, and as I recall it was a tenth slower than the Mustang's.

Cobrabill,

Must have been some big boost in that 240.

You said that the motor in the Supra wasn't Japanese. Were you refering to the Supra in the video clip that beat the cobra, or to the Supra with the 1/4 mile time Curt was referencing? And out of curiousity, what kind of engine was it?

MT

[Cobrabill]

MT-no,i was referring to the stock motor that comes in all Supra's.It was/is built by ZF(Germany).Toyota got tired of Datsun(the Z) handing them their a$$.So they had to contract with the the Krauts to get a good(great piece).

THe HP numbers others have mentioned concerning the Supra are accurate.
I'm running about 20lbs of boost.It is harder to keep traction when the boost comes up with the Z then it was with my Cobra.

And it's blue with white stripes*.






And no-i didn't paint it that way.

[cobrashoch]

It must be in the water. There is a guy around here named Viper Bob with a white twin turbo Supra that's on spray that beats up Vipers, or so he said. His car does run in the mid 11's and does so on the street too, but in any rate one pass in my car set his thinking straight. After riding in his car it was clear that any further mods would have made that car seriously unstreetable and at the very best unreliable, and at the worst very dangerous.
Kinda like some of the Cobras I've rode in.
I must be getting old. I started hearing these same debates with the on set of muscle cars in the mid sixties. And guys, there's 7 second street small block Mustangs out there. It's all relative to who you talk to.
cobrashock

[Curt C.]

Originally posted by MysteryTrain


Curt,

I saw an ad in a magazine that said the fastest 1/4 time for a street legal car with street tires was a Mustang (looked like an 89 LX). The same ad posted the record for an import on street tires, a Supra, and as I recall it was a tenth slower than the Mustang's.

MT

Mystery Train. I read the article in Hot Rod a couple of months ago. The story is about a Viper and they reference the Supra at the end. Here is the link.

http://hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/1...er/index1.html

BTW, I said IRS cars. There are some extremely quick mustangs running turbos and solid axles. I suspect, like you said, they can run faster than a 7.90 (Supra time).

Who said the Supra motor was made in Japan?

[GeorgiaSnake]

Speaking of the Supra motors - have any of you guys ever seen the bottom end. The entire bottom end looks like it could handle what ever you could throw at it.

I saw a Supra at the Commerce drag strip get totally sideways going through the traps at well over a 100 mph when he hit the juice - they asked him to leave. They asked a few of the Cobras to leave as well.

Randy

[Excaliber]

First time I hit the 11's they asked ME to leave!

I called later and found out I could run if I had Nomex jacket and arm restraints, so I bought them. Get in the 10's and I would need a full cage.

Local Viper, twin turbo, Nitrous. Street car, no cage, looks stock, bolt on slicks at the drag strip. Runs 9's (well, he did before they asked him to leave). 775 REAR WHEEL horse power. Recently sold for $45K (I was thinking about it...).

[wireflight]

Originally posted by ManyScalps


I was positive they said it was a BB but you could be right, and I agree; it very well could have been staged.

I can't count how many times I've heard people talk about "big block 302" Fords -- nevermind that the low-deck Windsor is, to anyone in the know, the smallest modern V8 Ford block used in RWD applications (the FWD 3.4 SHO V8 might be smaller).

And, I'v heard people buy into the idea that the 351W is a big block (perhaps aggravated by some Chevy ads calling their 350 a big block, even though they were obviously referring to the venerable 350 SBC).

And then you've got the crowd that doesn't understand packaging or other design considerations, that think displacement determines whether an engine is a big or a small block. They don't understand, for instance, how the 400 SBC and 400 Ford engines can be small blocks, while the 396 BBC and 332-390 FE engines are big blocks.

There are people that think Cleveland SBF engines are big blocks, but Windsor SBF engines are small blocks -- nevermind that they all share the same bore spacing and the tall Windsor has a deck height roughly 0.3 inches greater than the low-deck Cleveland.

And if you've got a 351M/400 SBF under your hood, forget trying to convince anyone other than a diehard Ford guy that it's a small block. The problem is that people generally don't care about having accurate information: all they want is to have their egos stroked while their prejudices are fed, and they don't want to have to actually THINK about anything.

So, "big block" -- from a "general audience" marketing perspective -- is an utterly meaningless term.

[wireflight]

Originally posted by MysteryTrain


Curt,

I saw an ad in a magazine that said the fastest 1/4 time for a street legal car with street tires was a Mustang (looked like an 89 LX). The same ad posted the record for an import on street tires, a Supra, and as I recall it was a tenth slower than the Mustang's.

MT

99% of the cars that will actually produce 1/4-mile times in the 13s will flat outrun 99% of the "10-second" and "11 second" street cars out there: snot-nosed punks talk all manner of trash, but they almost never can back it up

It's a different thing, altogether, I know -- but I just had to mention it:

In 1989, I bought the third SHO sold in Mississippi. It got 28+ mpg at 142 mph (28.3+ between fillups on a 388-mile round trip, where I discovered the cruise would not set above 125 mph). Anyway, while on the first such trip I made, I was passed (!) while I was zipping along at a sedate 142 mph (that's 76 seconds to go 3 miles) -- by what looked like a black Mustang LX hatchback having a Saleen-type wing on the rear. Said Mustang had limo tint on the side and rear windows, and a decal across the top of the rear window that read "C A R T E C H" -- I figured "Cartech" was some sort of boom box company.

Several months later, I read an article about a 5.0 Mustang convertible -- Cartech was the company that had put twin hairdryers on the steed, turning it into a 177-mph breezer! The car that passed me was going at least 30 mph faster than I, so I have no doubt at all that the 177 mph claim was accurate. The only places I could beat those 'Stangs was in the "usable interior volume/occupant comfort" areas and at the gas pump: the SHO simply never got thirsty, no matter how hard I drove it.

My best 1/4-mile in the SHO was 14.86 @ 101.0 (wierd mph for that e.t, but I was always over 99.5 mph and ... after I learned how to drive a FWD car ... always under 14.92 seconds). The only mods I did to the SHO were:

Baseline) 15.36 @ 93.5 mph. 29.6-or-so average mpg with cruise set at 75-or-so mph, >10/<15 percent city (best on a tank was 36 mpg, achieved twice; "normal driving" routinely returned roughly 32 mpg. 142 mph sustainable top speed; never was able to get above this -- sort of like the "165 mph barrier" for early Cobras.

1a) K&N air filter for 5.0 Mustang (same apparent dimensions as SHO filter, but $30 cheaper and in-stock) -- no change in mpg or top speed; 15.16 @ 99.7 mph

1b) removed air intake silencer from driver's fender -- -- no change in mpg or top speed; 15.16 @ 99.7 mph. Purpose of this mod was primarily to enable me to hear the running engine, because I seldom relied on the tach to know whether my engine was running, or for adjusting my driving around town. After doing several unintentional burnouts through intersections, and attempting occasionally to restart my running engine, I knew I needed something I could hear. I loved the sound, as did my gearhead pals -- but girls didn't like it (car sounded "too macho"), and most guys just got a blank look on their faces when I explained it to them.

1c) used factory clip -- that had apparently never been installed -- to "repair" shifter cable assembly in console; problem was that car would FREQUENTLY lose 2nd, 4th, and Reverse gears -- and I think this is what gave the Mazda tranny an UNDESERVED bad rep. I went to the dealer probably 20 times with this problem before I finally fixed it myself; after I installed the clip, I NEVER again had that problem (or any trans-related problem) with the SHO.

2a) Slick 50 -- no change in e.t., mph or mpg, but engine ran WARMER after the treatment (I never learned why);

2b) got aerospace NDI lab to reinforce stock front engine mount (this took a while to get right) and used "grade 9" shoulder bolt, flat washers and locknut; eventually quit breaking bolts and "egging" the mount holes -- what Ford should have done from the beginning

Whereas the car formerly would practically "launch itself," the improved mount required skill from the driver. Seemed to add time to the e.t. and add mph to the trap speed, but iirc, I swapped tires before I could get a set of numbers I felt were reliable. The car was much, much more pleasant to drive around town after the engine-mount mod.

3) post-rotation bald (cord showing in all 4) P215/65 VR-15 Goodyear Eagles (m&b for $1400/4) replaced after 10k miles with P215/65 R-15 Kelly Chargers (m&b, new valves, road hazard, etc., etc. for $360/4) -- lowered e.t. by 0.3 seconds, but also lowered top speed from 142 mph to 135 mph.

These tires have GRIP! Not sure if additional mph observed in 1/4 mile was in part because of vastly improved starting line traction. Since these tires lowered my top speed, I would have expected them to also lower my 1/4 mile trap speed -- but instead, I picked up 1.3 mph in the 1/4 mile!

lowered fuel economy about 1.4-or-so mpg overall. put just over 34k miles on these tires, just as hard (if not harder) than the first 10k miles, and where the "hair" had been on the tread was still visible (little dots/rings) and there was still long "stubble" on the sidewalls [truly amazing tires].

Goodyears gave MUCH warning before losing lateral adhesion; Kellys gave almost none -- however, Kellys offered very much greater lateral adhesion at the limit, and could readily be driven to that limit by an experienced driver.

-- above mods were last for which numeric empirical data was obtained --

4) replaced clutch with upgraded version at 13k miles -- what Ford should have used from the beginning; no observed improvements, except in reliability/longevity; dealer unsealed air conditioning system and didn't properly reseal/recharge system

5) took car to dealer because air conditioner made a buzzing sound and produced foul odor; dealer kept car for a day; when I returned to pick up my car, it had been driven something like 60-70 miles, and I was told "we tuned the engine." They hadn't looked at the air conditioning system. Prior to this "tune-up," the tach indicated 7200 rpm whenever I bumped the limiter; after the tune-up, the tach indicated 7700 rpm whenever I bumped the limiter. I have no idea what they actually did; however, the "seat of the pants" forward acceleration of the car was remarkably improved. Top speed was unchanged.

Later discovered and remedied cause of buzzing sound and foul odor: a mouse was trapped in the a/c blower fan; I removed it, cleaned the assembly, and used air freshener.

6) fabbed a ram air kit using dryer duct and fiberglass; scoop was like a 3-d NACA duct, suspended just below bumper in high pressure area; used stock airbox with silencer removed. midrange acceleration was so much improved by this mod that it defied belief: in any gear, above 2200 rpm, it felt like a 250-shot of nitrous in a Mustang, except the transition was simply smooth and seamless -- and it didn't go away, at least through 110 mph.

I honestly thought the car was in the low-low 14s or high-high 13s after this mod, but I didn't get to test it on the track: that night was moonless and foggy, and I had to go to the base to work my shift. En route, I crested a hill between 90 and 100, and ran over the carcass of a dog that had been killed earlier in the day by another driver. Although I didn't kill the dog, it certainly killed my scoop -- and after that (and the cleanup -- yucch), I just didn't have the passion to redo the scoop. I traded for a 210-hp '93 Crown Vic and promptly put a 150-shot on it -- but that's a story for another day.

I wish I had a dollar for the faces of each of the people utterly shocked when my 4-door, FWD family sedan blew the doors off every C3 Corvette I came across -- and I wish I had video of when my sis used it to outrun the local PD (who gave me heck after that)

[MysteryTrain]

wireflight,

Funny you mention SHO's and the "big block" misnomer given to basically any v8 by young punks brought up on Import Tuner magazine. I have a 98 v8 SHO, and had co-worker come up to me and say, "Man, how did Ford squeeze a big-block into that car?" So there you have it. A 3.4 liter engine is offically a "big block".

MT

[wireflight]

ROTF LMTO!

I knew the problem was widespread, but I would never have guessed that it had gone *that* far!

I tested a '93 slushbox SHO and found it a lot more pleasant in normal daily driving than the m/t car -- but it was a little weak in the "go" department.

Iirc, either Turbo Engineering (Tacoma, WA) told me in '89 they'd need $3800 plus my car for a few weeks to put a proper hairdryer setup on it. I was waaaaay tempted! FWIW, they did some killer work on GNs and 5.0s.

Also iirc, the 3.0 SHO used the same input shaft dims and bellhousing pattern as the 5.0 Mustang, and I read a story about a guy putting one in his MG (or other British) replica. For some odd reason, he did what I thought was a lot of fabbing between the tranny and the engine.

Anyway, turning the upper intake around proved very much simpler than I had imagined; I don't remember if he used spacers, but it was ridiculously straightforward. I wish someone would do a SHO Cobra; I think it would make a pretty great addition to the turnkey market!

Another sleeper possibility would have been the M-6010-A224 (4.36 bore, 3.75 stroke, pistons & rods from the 460 Ford; 3.7 liters) block with (back then) a TFS head (or, for the gutsy, an ARAO 4-valve head) and a turbo & intercooler setup from a Buick GN. Zippity-do-dah-day! Heck, if you could find the stuff to make one of those nowadays, it would make a killer Cobra package for the "cubic dollars" gofast crowd.

I had an intercooler idea that would likely have allowed the 224 to make 500+ bhp (if the block stayed together) power levels under 6500 rpm on pump gasoline. The downside was that an aluminum 302/351 Windsor could be built to the same power levels for much, much less mulah, and the package weight would be about the same. Oh, well.

I still think the Cobras are sexy as heck -- but the older I get, the more upright (as in "chair-like," not as in "simply make the backbone vertical") I like the seating position. And I like the roof/roll cage well out-of-the-way; I laughed when I saw FFR's GTM supercar video -- the tester's head protruded above the roll cage, and he ducked under it to look behind the car while backing up. My thought: That "roll cage" might as well be made of PVC plastic or exhaust tubing.

Sorry I got so far off topic; I'll try to do better in the future -- ::grin::

Happy motoring!

[cleandan]

I always wonder why "ricers" are so hard to take seriously. Sure there are many fart piped, stereo laden, window dressed, body kit wearing,
747 winged, imports running around and most of them are not "real fast or quick" (14.5's or slower in the 1/4 mile) This, however, does not mean that a person with the right abilities can not get one to go like heck. I DO have issues with the attitudes of many import drivers as they are either too cool for words, or of the gang bang wanna be variety, but this should not deter from the mechanical realities of the car they are driving. I guess I look at the car game this way. If a car is fast...it is fast. It does not matter if the motor is big or small, normally aspirated or running a power adder, built on daddys credit card or from a very low budget. When the finished package works well, it just works well. The Supra is a very well engineered vehicle that responds VERY well to proper performance upgrades. So if one stuffs you in the weeds simply tip your hat to a well put together import. The way a car is set up make a huge difference too. I know of some very high powered road race cars that are terribly slow, as compared to their HP numbers, at the drag strip simply because the suspension is not made for that kind of racing. On the other hand, I know of many very quick drag cars that will not do squat on a road course...you ever try to corner, at any speed above 25 mph, with wrinkle wall slicks? That is an experience every car guy should have to live at least once. No matter what, have fun with the sport and don't bash the "wrong" engined vehicles for being something you don't think they can be. Talent, engineering, and money can go a loooong way towards making cars high in performance.

[wireflight]

Cleandan,

I think you have the basics. Although art is subjective, there is among most people a common perception regarding what is pretty and in good taste.

Think of it like cornering under ideal conditions. You see an "off" ramp having a posted speed advisory (yellow speed limit sign) of 25 mph. If you take the curve at 15 mph, everyone yawns: you haven't impressed anyone.

Since most people take the curve at 23 mph, if you take the curve at 25 mph, you'll have outdone most people -- but only a very few will be impressed. It's a different story, if you successfully negotiate the curve at 40 mph (your car's limit): all of a sudden, you're "Cool Daddy #1."

However, if you attempt to egotiate the curve at a speed greater than 40 mph, you fail -- spectacularly. And so it is with pushing boundaries of style:

Most hot rodders demonstrate good taste regarding the aesthetics of their respective vehicles: it doesn't matter so much if a car has a faded or cracked paint job, or even if it's simply shot in primer, if the body shape is still pretty and nothing about it is gaudy.

The less well-maintained the paint appears, especially if there is some rust-through, the louder the exhaust can be (within limits) without being "completely unacceptable."

People naturally allow the relaxation of standards for those appearing to "do their best within their limited means." An appearance of economic privation doesn't justify everything, but it usually lets someone get by with things that would otherwise be frowned upon.

The same goes for minor leaks and smoking: a red-and-white, 1957 Chevy Bel-Air Coupe that looks brand new is perceived by a different standard than the one applied to a brown, 1984 Chevy Caprice that looks like it was salvaged from a junkyard so the driver would have wheels to get to work.

Where the ricer crowd screws up is the same place that the thumper crowd screws up, which is the same place that the gang banger crowd screws up, which is the same place that the illegal-drug crowd screws up, etc.:

It's all about obnoxiously being "in your face." Some people view this as social Darwinism: those that fail to crush the incursion of gangs and illegal drugs (and the other problems those problems bring) are, like it or not, the "weakest link," and nature will select them for extinction.

And though any particular individual neither in a gang nor participating in the trafficking of illegal drugs may have 22-inch wire spokes on his bagged-up '96 Caprice or Crown Vic', the odds are that the stereotype is accurate -- and it's made even moreso when the paint reflects those sorts of influences.

The same goes for body modifications and stereos, gaudy wheels and "spinners" -- whether on a full-sized ride or on a ricer or on something else.

There is a subjective line that is crossed, but it is nevertheless a real distinction, when the modifications cease to be art and become something dangerously ugly.

For a person to flout the sensibilities of good society is for that person to declare himself or herself an enemy of the State and its values, an enemy of the society and its values, and in particular, an enemy of the decent people of the State and their values. It is an open declaration of war.

The problem for ricers has historically been that significantly changing the looks of their cars required modifications that would by most people be considered either tasteless or goofy. This was aggravated by "fart pipes" and gaudy wheels and half-inch-off-the-ground suspensions.

Think of it this way: you're a straight guy, and some chick or chicks are constantly begging to be with you. Sure, she's (or they've) got your attention -- but not in a good way.

And so it is for those people out there that "pimp their rides" -- they have the attention of society, but in a way that makes society want to be rid of them.

Historically, it is natural to discount, minimize, discredit or otherwise diminish among popular perception the performance of those one wants to extinguish. Because ricers are so intimately associated with counter-cultural movements, drug trade and gang activity, they are victims of their own notoriety.

When the car/style becomes an icon of sociopathic malevolence, it, too, must go.

Oh, and I agree with the comment about w/w slicks; I knew a chick that wiped-out a concrete telephone pole with a C3 'Vette (supercharged SBC) that was on wrinkle-wall slicks. Always tell the driver about the mods BEFORE he or she tries to take off on a burger run!

Originally Posted by cleandan

edited by wireflight

I always wonder why "ricers" are so hard to take seriously. Sure there are many fart piped, stereo laden, window dressed, body kit wearing, 747 winged, imports running around and most of them are not "real fast or quick" (14.5's or slower in the 1/4 mile)

This, however, does not mean that a person with the right abilities can not get one to go like heck.... Talent, engineering, and money can go a loooong way towards making cars high in performance.

I suppose the power triad will always exist: cubic inches, cubic dollars, and innovation. Similarly, the "go fast" triad will also exist: talent, skill, and preparedness.

Happy motoring,
Jesse

[Cobrabill]

Folks need to know what "rice" is."Rice" is cars that have appearance "items".Wings,fartcans,neon etc.Nothing on the car actually makes the car go faster.

There are legitimate Japanese "muslce cars" out there.Mostly Zs & Supras.

[jdean]

Ricers - the stereo shakes the car. Real muscle cars - the engine shakes the car.