Carroll Shelby Engine Company

[Excaliber]

It is often assumed without Shelbys involvement AC cars would have been done, kaput, game over. I don't think so myself, I think they would have found another way to survive for years to come.

But "fade into oblivion" in time I believe is an accurate statement. They, like so many others, rode Shelbys coat tails to fame. Fame deserved, or not, was just part of the deal if you worked with the man along the way.

[lineslinger]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

It's just a coincidence that it applies equally to the participants.

Chappy....

[zrayr]

I'm missing something........ there must be a thrill in throwing dirt on Shelby, but I don't see it. Sure, he F's up just like everybody else on the planet. Only he does it in public, sometimes not a pretty sight.

Z. Ray

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

2. If Carroll hadn't made the AC into a race car this forum and the hobby wouldn't exist

But in its place would be clubcadet.com, an exciting forum devoted to the Cub Cadet riding mowers:

1. There would those made by Int'l Harvester (known as the "Originals") and those made by MTD Products (called "Continuations") and this would be a hotly debated topic;

2. Owners of each would bicker about which was best, with emphasis on Kohler vs Briggs powerplants and sheet metal bodies vs composite;

The mods would close most threads involving discussions on the two topics above.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

But in its place would be clubcadet.com, an exciting forum devoted to the Cub Cadet riding mowers:

1. There would those made by Int'l Harvester (known as the "Originals") and those made by MTD Products (called "Continuations") and this would be a hotly debated topic;

2. Owners of each would bicker about which was best, with emphasis on Kohler vs Briggs powerplants and sheet metal bodies vs composite;

The mods would close most threads involving discussions on the two topics above.

Then they would make this out of it:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0166896/

P.S. This is not your usual David Lynch movie.

[REAL 1]

Time will tell whether I am right in my position.

I take my position not to offend anyone, or to peddle anything I don't find to be true but because I defend the facts as they exist today. I rely on only facts.

I also can't comment on what other CSX owners do or don't do. Don't care. I know one thing for sure... something motivated them to pay more for a Shelby Cobra as opposed to a replica of one. Whether they choose to defend their car is up to them. However, if they choose to be silent hoping to gain some "friendship" or "allegiance" here thats fine. Thats them. I don't compromise the facts in exchange for false allegiances and if being self depricating towards my Cobra is the price of friendship or being liked on CC candidly I'll pass. I already have enough REAL friends. Don't need false ones.

The "replica" dictionary definition arguement does not hold water. SAAC even dealt with this issue. I won't waste my time with it. Read the Registry. I agree with their position.

In the end, enjoy what you have but a part of this hobby is also about respecting what others have. That doesn't happen here much but I hang around to make sure at least one voice is speaking to the facts on these cars (Shelby Cobras).

Lets see who the future finds is correct.

My money's on me.

P.S. The GT350SR is a neat car. But like any enthusiast/collectible car, Shelby or not it can be bought at the wrong price and you can over pay for anything. Point in fact, the price of original Cobras and collectibles have gone up and down over the years. If you bought anything high and chose to sell in a low market you lose. Trick is to buy at the right price and sell at the right time. Economy now sucks. Its horrible out there. Everything just about is way way down. But if you have the money you can get some good buys which may in the future, (God willing this country will survive what we have in Washington), go up in value as the economy improves (again, God willing).

Takes care.

[Silverback51]

Second verse, same as the first.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

It is often assumed without Shelbys involvement AC cars would have been done, kaput, game over. I don't think so myself, I think they would have found another way to survive for years to come.

It might be worth noting that AC did the investigation into stuffing a V8 into their Ace chassis before Ford, Shelby or anyone else came calling.

It might be worth noting that Shelby's "development" of the 289 seems to be limited to a joint call from him and Ford to see if a 289 could be made to fit in the Ace chassis - whereupon AC did all the engineering, work and testing and answered "Yup" - then proceeded to build complete rollers that were shipped to Shelby, who *gasp* installed the engines on this side of the pond.

It might be worth noting that the 427 chassis was designed, developed and tested by AC after a similar phone call a year or two later. Ditto on the production.

I do sometimes have trouble distinguishing exactly *what* Unca Carroll did except for final assembly and race tweaking. Why the cars came to be known by the racing team that used them rather than the engineers and factory that built them is a little head-scratching. After all, Gulf didn't go around pounding its chest about "its" great GT-40s.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Second verse, same as the first.

It's amazing isn't it? The guy is the energizer bunny when it comes to his ONE and only subject.

Evan relies on facts, but speculates on collectability.

I can think of only one volume manufacturer, where after 10 years from their "collectible" car's original production date, the prices are greater than MSRP. Of course, the production numbers of their "collectible" type cars are usually around 300-400 cars each time. Not 1,500, 2,000 or even 4,000 cars produced.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...a part of this hobby is also about respecting what others have.

Physician, heed thyself. I haven't seen anyone deprecate your car or any other CSX in here - except on some verifiable engineering points, which are neither here nor there in the value discussion.

What we deprecate is your thundering, obsessive opinion that continuation CSX's are a better investment. (And it is merely an opinion, as yet neither substantiated nor unsubstantiated by any marketplace fact... yet you keep banging on the word "fact" as if you know what it means.)

You, on the other hand, never fail to deprecate all other replicas AND our collective judgment about buying them.

POLITENESS EDIT: There are those who know when to back away from an argument, and those who are unable to. Allow me to demonstrate the former position: *poof*

[Jamo]

Okey dokey...time to back away from the edgy personalized discussions. Immediately.

[patrickt]

Gunner, remember this is all just for fun. If you make the other guy blow up, then you win; if you blow up though, then you lose.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Gunner, remember this is all just for fun. If you make the other guy blow up, then you win; if you blow up though, then you lose.

Phew! I couldn't tell if my "energizer bunny" label was the tipping point.

Now back to magnetic trigger ignitions or something else I have no clue about.

[RodKnock]

BTW, someone felt that the Unique Performance GT350SR was a good deal, because it's sold now (BIN = $78,000). I reeeeeeeeally liked that car.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Now back to magnetic trigger ignitions or something else I have no clue about.

I posted a request for assistance over inthe Lounge locating the suction fitting on a late model Toyota Camry V6. If anybody would like to work that question, please check the Lounge.

[lloyds1]

Maybe you should change your user name to "Continuation 1". That seems to be SAAC's preferred terminology. Nowhere does the SAAC registry refer to a CSX 4000 car as a "real" car. Actually, they don't refer to any cars as "real" cars.

BTW, being condescending does tend to offend people.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Time will tell whether I am right in my position.

I take my position not to offend anyone, or to peddle anything I don't find to be true but because I defend the facts as they exist today. I rely on only facts.

I also can't comment on what other CSX owners do or don't do. Don't care. I know one thing for sure... something motivated them to pay more for a Shelby Cobra as opposed to a replica of one. Whether they choose to defend their car is up to them. However, if they choose to be silent hoping to gain some "friendship" or "allegiance" here thats fine. Thats them. I don't compromise the facts in exchange for false allegiances and if being self depricating towards my Cobra is the price of friendship or being liked on CC candidly I'll pass. I already have enough REAL friends. Don't need false ones.

The "replica" dictionary definition arguement does not hold water. SAAC even dealt with this issue. I won't waste my time with it. Read the Registry. I agree with their position.

In the end, enjoy what you have but a part of this hobby is also about respecting what others have. That doesn't happen here much but I hang around to make sure at least one voice is speaking to the facts on these cars (Shelby Cobras).

Lets see who the future finds is correct.

My money's on me.

P.S. The GT350SR is a neat car. But like any enthusiast/collectible car, Shelby or not it can be bought at the wrong price and you can over pay for anything. Point in fact, the price of original Cobras and collectibles have gone up and down over the years. If you bought anything high and chose to sell in a low market you lose. Trick is to buy at the right price and sell at the right time. Economy now sucks. Its horrible out there. Everything just about is way way down. But if you have the money you can get some good buys which may in the future, (God willing this country will survive what we have in Washington), go up in value as the economy improves (again, God willing).

Takes care.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Gunner, remember this is all just for fun. If you make the other guy blow up, then you win; if you blow up though, then you lose.

It's more like the maxim about arguing with an idiot.

I wish this forum software had a plonk function. So useful.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Gunner

It's more like the maxim about arguing with an idiot.

I wish this forum software had a plonk function.

No, no, no... you have to be slyer than that. You have to bait him down a path in which he will end up losing regardless of the direction that he takes. Toss out something like "Hey Evan, it appears that owners of CSX2xxx and CSX3xxx series cars do not view continuation Cobras as being "real" Cobras at all. Does that bother you?" Remember Evan's a tricky one, so you have to be cunning, and you have to appear to be coming from a different direction than you really are if you expect to fool him....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, no, no... you have to be slyer than that. You have to bait him down a path in which he will end up losing regardless of the direction that he takes. Toss out something like "Hey Evan, it appears that owners of CSX2xxx and CSX3xxx series cars do not view continuation Cobras as being "real" Cobras at all. Does that bother you?" Remember Evan's a tricky one, so you have to be cunning, and you have to appear to be coming from a different direction than you really are if you expect to fool him....

Guys, guys, guys. No more. This is the final thought (yep, I believe that) on the real versus replica nonsense directly from Mr. Rick Kopec some time ago:

It's all a matter of semantics. To quote a great American, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." We use labels as shorthand to identify a particular type of car. When someone says "original Cobra" there is no question they are referring to a CSX2000 or a CSX3000 car. It’s easier than trotting out a laundry list of characteristics that a car has to have to be considered an original Cobra (e.g. built between 1961 and 1967 by AC Cars Ltd. under a contract by Shelby American, completed by the factory or one of its authorized representatives, and sold in that time frame by the factory or a franchised dealer). It’s like shorthand.

Where the rub comes in is, who decides which labels are accurate? Anyone can call a car anything they want. This is why Cobra replicas are often referred to differently (replica, kit car, clone, fake, reproduction, knock-off, copy-cat, etc.). Some people (owners mostly, who have a dog in the hunt) prefer some descriptions more than others and feel some labels may be disparaging or prejudicial to their car. They are entitled to their feelings, but just "feeling" doesn't make anyone else right or wrong. Mostly this is determined by common usage. For fiberglass-bodied cars like the ERA, Contemporary, Factory 5, etc. Cobra replica or replica Cobra seems to have become the coin on the realm.

But when you move on to aluminum-bodied cars with the same tube frame and sub-framing as the originals (Autokraft MK IV, Kirkham, CSX4000, etc) Cobra replica doesn’t seem to fit as precisely. This is mostly because that terfm has been used so often to refer to fiberglass bodied “kit cars.” So it becomes less accurate when referring to these cars, which are more closely made to original specifications. Naturally, in the name of accuracy, people want to use something else. But what, exactly? It’s a good question. And it probably has many answers. Mostly, whether you like it or not, it will come down to what the common usage is.

Personally, I subscribe to the “Kill’ em all and let God sort ‘em out” philosophy. I call them all Cobra because that’s what they look like. Then to differentiate between them I attach an adjective. Kind of like a genus and species in zoology. Original needs no explanation; when you say “original Cobra” there is no question what you are talking about. And Replica has come to describe the fiberglass bodied kit car genre. CSX4000, Kirkham and AC MK IV are all pretty descriptive when added to “Cobra” so I don’t see the need to find some kind of catch-all term that will fit them all. You can’t do it with one word anyway.

The question of semantics is an interesting one but you can get too wrapped up in it and pretty soon you’re debating how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Bottom line: We all own Cobras. Yeah!

Now this CS Engine Company is an interesting idea....I wonder what their shop rates are.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, no, no... you have to be slyer than that.

So sly as to remain silent.