Shelby vs. Kirkham - Page 2

RodKnock · #1 (**permalink**) 12-05-2009, 07:21 PM

Looking back in history, there have been several threads comparing the Shelby and the Kirkham. The OP should review them. The two that come quickly to mind are the 'rsimones' thread and the other was by 'alpace.'

Shelby vs a Kirkham (aluminum)

CSX vs. Kirkham

They're both wonderful cars. As I always say, that why they make different flavors of ice cream.

patrickt · #2 (**permalink**) 12-05-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... the 'rsimones' thread

The proper reference for that is "the thread of which we do not speak."

Hexnut72 · #3 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Looking back in history, there have been several threads comparing the Shelby and the Kirkham. The OP should review them. The two that come quickly to mind are the 'rsimones' thread and the other was by 'alpace.'

Shelby vs a Kirkham (aluminum)

CSX vs. Kirkham

They're both wonderful cars. As I always say, that why they make different flavors of ice cream.

I did not look at the links but both Al and RSimones ended up buying Kirkhams... If that tells you anything.

RodKnock · #4 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I don't know if it's better or worse, but the Kirkham does weigh about 200-300 lbs lighter than a comparable CSX, and I assume it's been all the years and iterations of that the Kirkhams have spent updating their billet aluminum suspension or another example would be the U-joints to CV joints. BTW, my car weighed in at 2,128 lbs.

Evan, this is what I said. I said I don't know if it's better or not, but the Kirkhams claim that it is lighter in older threads. They also R&D their suspension (e.g., some of the Larry Ellison improvements are trickling down to the production cars) as well as other parts of the car, though some or all of these improvements move it further away from being authentic.

maurice19 · #5 (**permalink**) 12-05-2009, 05:10 PM

Gunner,
Regarding your post #16, the Kirkham cars were asked to join the Registry in order to keep track of them as Kirkhams and diminish the real possibility they might be sold as Shelbys.
IMO

Maurice

Gunner · #6 (**permalink**) 12-05-2009, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maurice19

Gunner,
Regarding your post #16, the Kirkham cars were asked to join the Registry in order to keep track of them as Kirkhams and diminish the real possibility they might be sold as Shelbys.

Ah. That almost makes sense.

OTOH... Real[tm] Shelbys have this chassis number that's understood worldwide and logged in a special public place. Exactly how would I pass off my Kirkham as a Shelby, no matter what I did to it? It would either have a duplicate chassis number, easily researched, or a bogus one, ditto.

Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I am unlikely to ever find in my garage is a CSX-anything... the originals keep receding from my financial reach (occasionally by a frustratingly small margin), and I have no interest in the continuations. So my interest is purely armchair.

Bill Bess · #7 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 05:28 AM

I checked out a CSX continuation car in Wickenburg, AZ this week end at a carshow. The car was very nice and gave me the feeling that "Gee this is a real one", and I was impressed by that fact, it's a real Shelby. That aside, I wasn't impressed by the car itself, it was very ordinary and not finished all that well.

There was a guy there with a really superb Superformance that showed nicer than the CSX, but thats just my opinion, and we all know the added value of the Shelby brand.

In addition, I've seen several Kirkhams, these are quality cars and really top end machines, and would be my personal choice.

gt500bill · #8 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 08:08 AM

+1.........

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill bess

in addition, i've seen several kirkhams, these are quality cars and really top end machines, and would be my personal choice.

cobraviper_99 · #9 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 09:49 AM

I'd like to weigh in on this. First of all, which car is "better" is as subjective a choice as there will ever be. All I can do is relate my experiences and the second-hand accounts I've heard from other CSX owners. The entire ordering, building, and after-the-sale experiences I have had in the process of acquiring CSX4252 have been exceptional since Day One. The late Bob Marsh at Shelby was attentive, sincere, and truly invested in working with me on my order. Gary Davis took the time to answer my endless questions as the build began and was always available by phone. The end result of how the build quality and overall appearance of a CSX measures up can be traced back to the dealer and Billy Andrews at HRE is a master craftsman whose work speaks for itself, not only on CSX cars but the outstanding original Cobras he has restored.

I would eagerly invite anyone to compare the quality and craftsmanship of my car to any other, regardless of manufacturer. The number of awards it has won is a testimony to the quality of the CSX Cobra and the skills of the guys at HRE. Jay Bentley has seen my car several times, actually parked his original Cobra beside mine at a show in Newport, RI in September and was quite impressed with it, which I truly appreciate. And the pride that comes with people just freezing in their steps when they see a Shelby Cobra with a CSX serial number--original or continuation--is always great fun. I am very happy that I chose the CSX Cobra and haven't regretted it for a moment.

Jamo · #10 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobraviper_99

I'd like to weigh in on this. First of all, which car is "better" is as subjective a choice as there will ever be. All I can do is relate my experiences and the second-hand accounts I've heard from other CSX owners. The entire ordering, building, and after-the-sale experiences I have had in the process of acquiring CSX4252 have been exceptional since Day One. The late Bob Marsh at Shelby was attentive, sincere, and truly invested in working with me on my order. Gary Davis took the time to answer my endless questions as the build began and was always available by phone. The end result of how the build quality and overall appearance of a CSX measures up can be traced back to the dealer and Billy Andrews at HRE is a master craftsman whose work speaks for itself, not only on CSX cars but the outstanding original Cobras he has restored.

I would eagerly invite anyone to compare the quality and craftsmanship of my car to any other, regardless of manufacturer. The number of awards it has won is a testimony to the quality of the CSX Cobra and the skills of the guys at HRE. Jay Bentley has seen my car several times, actually parked his original Cobra beside mine at a show in Newport, RI in September and was quite impressed with it, which I truly appreciate. And the pride that comes with people just freezing in their steps when they see a Shelby Cobra with a CSX serial number--original or continuation--is always great fun. I am very happy that I chose the CSX Cobra and haven't regretted it for a moment.

Absolutely, and well said. Bob Marsh was one of my favorite people in this thing, and I found it very difficult to choose the Kirkham simply because of Bob. Heck, the deal he was offering would've made the CSX cheaper.

Absolutely nothing against other Shelby folks, both current and past, and most asspecially the Garys and Amy. Bob came in at an extremely difficult time, handled it well and made it personally happen that Shelby continued to make their products available, in arruminum as well as glass. There are many back stories from that time that modern-era history buffs would faint if they heard them.

I miss that man dearly.

RodKnock · #11 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 12:22 PM

Here's Shelby Racer's CSX thread:

4000 series hub / upright / spidle options

Edit: 2nd Shelby Racer Thread: CSX 4000 series body / frame assymetry

patrickt · #12 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 12:28 PM

Yep, that was it. I pm'd with him off line on that as well. That's the thread I recalled in my post to Allan. I think his response was basically "if you haven't owned one, then you really have no business critiquing them." And I guess there's some merit to that. It's been a long time, but I remember somebody having a real beef with Peter at ERA on here. But it didn't have to do with the quality of the work; the guy never even took delivery of the car -- he cancelled it, as I remember. But I'm very hazy about that. I don't remember anybody really complaining about the Kirkhams, either. I have a vague recollection of Jamo not being happy with a timely delivery of a clutch fork, but that could have been in jest. And I could be completely wrong on that all together.

fonti · #13 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 12:51 PM

Hhmmm... I don't know if I can comment my own question. After a very Cobra-oriented week with dozens of hours on the computer and on the phone I got a little bit of knowledge...but just a very little bit!
I made my mind up that I cannot buy a fiberglass replica. And I also know now, that the Kirkham is the better car. (less weight, better fabrication, better / more modern technology, suspension and eventually better customer support) BUT: in Switzerland a Shelby is a Shelby and that is easier to put on the road. It is just a silly VIN-Tag somewhere on the dashboard and a piece of paper!
And it is oldstyle 427, 4-speed toploader and so on, but it is a Shelby. That is the reason why I am probably buying an aluminum Shelby. And I have to say that my Budget is not existent anymore. I'm talking way too much money but it is just great to even think of owning such a Car.
There are two nice brushed bodys out there, both in CA - man that's gonna be another late night!!

franklin · #14 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 02:05 PM

Having lived here in Utah for some time and visiting both manufacturers. Kirkhams quality of parts being made and used on their cars is much higher quality than what I have seen of the Shelby cars. The quality of the build is also better at the Kirkham shop.

I just don't understand why a Signature is worth so much when quality across the board is less.

Just calling it as I have seen.
JMHO
Todd

RodKnock · #15 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 02:12 PM

I think, as I pointed out several pages ago, the Kirkham quality is consistent, since they build virtually all of them in Utah.

Just my impression, but the CSX experience may vary by dealer across the country. Rokndad has had nothing but positive experiences from the people in Las Vegas. I've never heard anything but great experiences from people who have gone to Billy Andrews at HRE.

Jamo · #16 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 03:33 PM

Paddy, meboyo...my comments on the clutch fork concerned a very minor situation. Attempts to comment on threads and posts by others over many years smacks a bit of Hearst-type sensationalism in the hopes of a fun battle on these boards. If someone's interested (and smart) enough...they can use the search function to reread previous threads instead of asking the same damn questions.

My experience in having KMP184 built in Provo produced a very detailed thread (included how the decision to have a brushed finish and an arruminum hood scoop came to be) back in 2002-3 (I know, a few years before your time) and indicates why I've never looked back nor have I have ever had a problem with anything built in Provo. On another current thread, I indicated that I chose the Kirkham even though I could've purchased a CSX a bit cheaper (total build) during Bob Marsh's tenure. Whether cheaper or not, I chose Kirkham based on factors other than price, as a certain moron who later ran Shelby (and got involved in fake movie cars) found out on these pages after tangling with me. I am a much gentler person now.

Many, many threads before you or your cohort in sh!tstarting (

) came on the scene.

Obviously, as with any of the mfgs, much of it depends on the person buying the car, and, in the case of Shelby...who's putting it together. Kirkhams have no dealers in the U.S....so consistency is the attribute most recognized. Shelbys built in Vegas and by certain dealers are impeccable...others are built by dealers from the lowest levels of hell.

This thread will NOT turn into a battleground nor will it turn into yet another recap of history. Seems like our Swiss friend has figured some things out in any event.

patrickt · #17 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

Paddy, meboyo...

Dang, that's what my wife calls me.

WarrenG · #18 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Dang, that's what my wife calls me.

Maybe there is more to Jamo's comment than meets the eye!

patrickt · #19 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Maybe there is more to Jamo's comment than meets the eye!

I'm just glad I don't have to share a cell with him.

RodKnock · #20 (**permalink**) 12-07-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

Seems like our Swiss friend has figured some things out in any event.

I'm kinda curious why it would be easier to register a Shelby, rather than a Kirkham, in Switzerland. It sounds like Shelby is a known name and Kirkham is not. I can understand that, since Shelby has been around a lot longer, but you would think that both cars are reasonably similar, in fact the body and frame are the same, so why the extra hassle? Should be the same modifications to both cars. In fact, you may want to ask the Kirkhams, since they may be able to help you with some of those mods needed. They certainly re-engineered their car for Mr. Larry Ellison, though he probably has more money than fonti.

Is this Barry Switzer-land?

(sorry, I was compelled to)