Cobra Make, Engine: CSX 6022, navy blue, period correct 427 SO
Posts: 2,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excaliber
We had the OP's original problem handled a couple of pages ago, now were just sitting around the bar making small talk until we get a report back on who is going to buy/install the new shaft.
That's kind of the way I look at it too. Although I am mostly at the bar with RodKnock making small talk and, uh, supervising.
__________________
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
Well I did "drift" my Excalibur for a short time. Drifting in the USA started in Hawaii, the Japanese influence and all. I quit when over time the local guys became a LOT more serious, it got to the point where you had to be willing to put your car in the wall to score points with more radical moves.
What really ended it for me was the day I lost my brakes coming into a hairpin corner at the end of the back stretch at a speed impossible to make that corner. I was going into the tire wall for sure. I stabbed the clutch and pulled the gear shift hard into 2nd and then dumped the clutch. That locked up the rear wheels, put the motor into high over rev rpm and threw the car sideways. It scrubbed off enough speed so that was able to "drift" through that corner sideways and it looked spectacular, like I had it all under control. I needed a full change of clothes following that and decided I had had enough drifting for a life time.
That was the number 1 thing on my mind during open track at SAAC-35. What if I lost the brakes, suddenly without warning? What would I do? Thankfully the brakes faded slowly enough (still, pretty quick though) and I got enough warning to exit the track.
It's not a bad idea to punish your brakes in some controlled manner to the point where they give out, fade or whatever. So you have an idea of what to expect when they go away. On the Excalibur I experienced a very hard pedal, no warning, no stopping, just push on it as hard as you could and nothing would happen. On the ERA, the pedal went soft, still some brake, low pedal, mushy, just the opposite of what the Excal was like!
It was noted in an earlier post by N2Venom, that Roush has said the warranty is over. I find that troubling, at least. The nut should not have backed off, it was also indicated that a couple of other nuts may have been (or is that "were") loose as well.
Frankly, if so, this a manufacturers error, a Roush error. If they have a known issue with rocker shaft bolts/nuts coming loose steps should be taken to address that issue. Locktite perhaps, or a note that those bolts/nuts in question should be retorqued. If it's a rare occurence, that would only support a defect in assembly technique, somebody didn't use the torque wrench properly.
As was previously noted the expected cost of repair parts is $600. That must include substantially more than just the rocker shaft!!! What else was damaged that would justify such an exceedingly high price for parts that appear to only a broken shaft, possibly a new nut or bolt? Still smells awfully fishy to me...
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham KMP500 LeMans- Roush 451 Shelby block; KMP Flip-top with cammer: KMP 289 Bronze under construction.
Posts: 285
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I have to wait and see what the assembly parts include. It is true that the other nuts were loose. On another note, I am planning to do another KMP. David and I are talking about the details. Let's say this KMP will be a first!!
The bottom line is NO manufacturer, engine builder or supplier intentionally installs a bad part. We play with some pretty expensive toys, I beleive this engine was in excess of $20K.
My first cobra had a run of the mill 302 with stock parts except for edlebrock manifold and heads and holley carb. That cobra and engine was beat senseless when I owned and the next , owner beat it harder. I am talking 1000's of 6Krpm shifts. I dropped the clutch 300 times? Next owner tracked the car. Last I saw it had over 15K miles and was still running great, used a little oil from what I was told.
My next one is going to have a stock engine, I'll give up the 75hp for bullet proof reliability and if it does break, who gives a sheet I only have about $4k into it!!!!
Max, I think your suggesting the rocker shaft itself was a "bad part"? If not, my apologies. It seem's clear the "defect" here was a loose nut, or several, which in turn resulted in a broken shaft.
The weakest link in any engine is the valve train. As we get more radical cams to squeze the last horsepower we have to go with higher spring pressures which in turn stress the pushrods, lifters and even the camshaft and turn the engine at higher rpm's. A stock 302 mustang has about 225 open and 100lbs on the seat. That is a far cry from the 400lb plus open pressures, probably higher with some solid lifters. Stock mustangs a go in excess of 150K miles. No replacement for displacement, if you want more HP get more cubic inches.
As someone used to say if you cant go fast with 100hp you cant go fast with 500hp.
As far as manufactures READ YOUR WARRANTY and note the limitations of liability, if you retorque bolts you may very well VOID the warranty. They are very explicit as to what you can do. In fact a smart person would read the warranty BEFORE they purhased the product.
This engine is out of warranty, bitter pill to swallow with less than 3K? miles but it appears the manufacturer fulfilled their obligation. Next time rack up 20K miles on the engine prior to it going out of warranty if it is going to have issues it will show up by then. If not you got a good 20K miles out of the engine.
Cobra Make, Engine: KMP 427 S/C, Twin Paxton 511 FE
Posts: 2,594
Not Ranked
Darren posted this issue on 11/9 and he's getting the parts via UPS one week later. Not too shabby if you ask me. I know you're not going to get Jack Roush on the phone like you would Keith Craft or Tom Lucas but still, not bad. He keeps his KMP nice and shiny but he tracks it as well. Things happen to engines built by ANY builder.
Darren, weren't you getting a Daytona from KMP or was that a rumor? What are you up to?
As I posted before the profit in these engines are comical, pick up a summit catalog and add up the parts, dart block, forged pistons, arp heads, scat rotating assembly, pistons, camshaft, timing gear, carb and these guys are making NOTHING, ZERO, why they do it is beyond me. Absolute best case scenerio on a stroked 351 using a dart block and getting 500 hp i bet the profit margin is less than $3.5K. Now the guy has to pay for his shop, his tools, his dyno, MY WARRANTY, a builder gets one warranty that needs 100% rebuild there goes his profit on the next 4 engines, oh wait, forgot about advertisement, machine work etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneym
Darren posted this issue on 11/9 and he's getting the parts via UPS one week later. Not too shabby if you ask me. I know you're not going to get Jack Roush on the phone like you would Keith Craft or Tom Lucas but still, not bad. He keeps his KMP nice and shiny but he tracks it as well. Things happen to engines built by ANY builder.
Darren, weren't you getting a Daytona from KMP or was that a rumor? What are you up to?
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham KMP500 LeMans- Roush 451 Shelby block; KMP Flip-top with cammer: KMP 289 Bronze under construction.
Posts: 285
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneym
Darren, weren't you getting a Daytona from KMP or was that a rumor? What are you up to?
My KMP LaMans fulfilled my needs for a hardtop. My next project was going to be the KMP Daytona, but decided on something a little different. David and I will be posting our plans in the next week. We are currently working out the details. My next build will be very very cool....
Cobra Make, Engine: KMP 427 S/C, Twin Paxton 511 FE
Posts: 2,594
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excaliber
Fact remains, this is a DEFECT in workmanship, not a bad part, not a "stuff happens" moment, not a "bitter pill". This aint right, straight up, Roush should man up and take responsibilty, out of warranty or not. 2,000 miles? Violate warranty if you re-torque anything, and if you don't, you won't find out there is a problem?
Roush is done in my book. The thought, "a fool and his money..." comes to mind in that regard.
I don't believe you can quantify that statement. Did the builder simply not use torque specs? Did he not follow procedure? Maybe, maybe not. Very hard to tell. That's why a warranty exists. True, an indy builder will give you better service, I'll grant you that. But I've witnessed questionable service from small guys, too.
There's a local Cobra that had a HTOB give in 400 miles. Who's fault? Car exchanged hands a couple times and work was not covered by the installer.
Another Cobra with a name build had an engine that was un-tunable. Builder had specs all wrong. The local rework was covered but there's a term that came with it, "blood from a turnip". (BTW, the names have been omitted to protect the...innocent?).
Let's just say if Roush was involved in these incidents it would have been a witch hunt. I've seen builders literally coddled like invalids on these threads. Kudos to Keith and Tom and others who will cover out of warranty engines without hesitation but Roush isn't a mom and pop shop, for better and/or worse.
What is the condition of the pushrods? For $750, you could get one of the last sets of the Erson roller rocker arm assemblies on the market from Barry R, so do the parts from Roush include pushrods? Those can be really expensive too.
Darren, you also mentioned that there may have been some internal damage too. Did you discover any, such as valves hitting pistons?
He's PAYING for the parts, why wouldn't he get excellent service and prompt shipping?
I would expect no less from any provider of parts.
Warranty: Yup, Roush has fulfilled the letter of the law, it's out of warranty. I can now write them off as any future dealer I would even want to do business with!! Fact remains, this is a DEFECT in workmanship, not a bad part, not a "stuff happens" moment, not a "bitter pill". This aint right, straight up, Roush should man up and take responsibilty, out of warranty or not. 2,000 miles? Violate warranty if you re-torque anything, and if you don't, you won't find out there is a problem?
Roush is done in my book. The thought, "a fool and his money..." comes to mind in that regard.
He's PAYING for the parts, why wouldn't he get excellent service and prompt shipping?
I would expect no less from any provider of parts.
Warranty: Yup, Roush has fulfilled the letter of the law, it's out of warranty. I can now write them off as any future dealer I would even want to do business with!! Fact remains, this is a DEFECT in workmanship, not a bad part, not a "stuff happens" moment, not a "bitter pill". This aint right, straight up, Roush should man up and take responsibilty, out of warranty or not. 2,000 miles? Violate warranty if you re-torque anything, and if you don't, you won't find out there is a problem?
Roush is done in my book. The thought, "a fool and his money..." comes to mind in that regard.
... amazing what you come up with 
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