Minimum Air Cleaner to Hood Clearance?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Ya don't have to pal-just start another air bleeds thread...
Instant catatonia.
Buy Brent a nitrided valley tray instead.

Wouldn't you feel better about yourself if you had just a little more patience with well-intentioned contributors who just happen to slight you ever so lightly?

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

So you put a wood block under your carb and tell me the open top is ugly.

Ohhhh, that makes you angry? Wuss.

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Spacers either add 6HP or cost 6HP (which you can't feel or measure unless you're running strip laps) and need to be dyno coordinated to an intake system. They are not a toy-du-jour for performance improvements.

Really, I take it that 6hp # is from your extensive testing? The guys doing actual testing in say "Engine Masters" competition, or NASCAR, or Trans Am, or any number of actual professionals, might have evidence to counter that sophomoric supposition.

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

This little tinker project was stupid to start with and what I told you was to prevent what you found out.

Denigrating comments like this are what make you such a freaking wanker. What did he find out Chas? Maybe you read some tea leaves or something and came up with something that the OP DIDN'T say.

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

then get the Xtreme top if you want power-if you're a lawn-chair guy

You've been through the stupid "Xtreme" filter lid discussion here before and have been told by people much more experienced and knowledgeable than you just how little (if at all) this POS works. And yet you have the unmitigated gall to spout "if you want power" at the OP who has only 1/16" clearance over the top of his AC? These piles of dung show negligible results when run on cars with wide open scoops and dynos with perfect air and yet you have somehow miraculously surmised that this guy's tiny over filter clearance would somehow produce major power with a pile of dog doo on top?

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

then forget I tried to help...
And I won't make that mistake again.

Well THAT would be nice!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

ERA Chas ... comments like this are what make you such a freaking wanker.

That was too funny.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Really, I take it that 6hp # is from your extensive testing? The guys doing actual testing in say "Engine Masters" competition, or NASCAR, or Trans Am, or any number of actual professionals, might have evidence to counter that sophomoric supposition.

I can see now that 'lovehamr' refers to your head.

One of the biggest mistakes posters on forums can make when they want to denigrate someone is to underestimate what they know and what they've done. No armchair internet genius posts from me.

Your quote above describes my previous job description almost precisely. I was marketing coordinator between World Castings and PHR during the years the EM Challenge was held in NY. I wrote and photoed all the coverage and specs for World after interviewing all competitors each year. I learned tech from: Kaase, Ron Shaver, Bob Lathrop, Barry R., Tony Bischoff, Jud Massengil, Jim Dove and Mark McKeown-among others. I witnessed and recorded every World crate engine combo R&D dyno- tested, and put the specs and my photos in our two catalogs and both websites.

Before doing that I was Purchasing mgr. and bought every part in inventory for all our engine combinations (56, at one time). This included carb spacers from Wilson Manifolds, Brzezinski,HVH and Hogan Manifolds. K&N filters too. They were tested relentlessly, 1", 2", inverted, 4 hole and open type and all materials. On engines from 500 to 1187HP. We saw max gains of 18HP on our 13.5 cr drag builds and always went back to the mfgr. with our input. That's a hundredth at the strip. And virtually all came on at 6500 and up. Using intakes from Hogan, Ede and our own. Can you expert jockeys feel that on the street with your Fisher-Price combinations??
We saw which lost power too-and many did. All this was after carefully tailoring jetting, cylinder head, intake and climate conditions. The under 650HP, 91 oct. combos showed gains and losses like I posted above.

So why should Frigo's brainstorm be worth the effort? I offered the open top so he wouldn't hurt his power as much as he obviously tried. But I didn't know it was against his discerning standards of aesthetics. High-chair spacer must look way cool in the supermarket parking lot to the rest of the vehicular pundits. You may not like the way I said it but I DID try to salvage a dumb move on your part Frigo.

Now you two tell me your professional experience that lets you throw snot all over me on this subject.

Done with both of you ass clowns. Frigo-I should have known about you when I saw your sig in crayons and big letters. Both of you feel free to ignore anything I write.

[Jeff Frigo]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Now you two tell me your professional experience that lets you throw snot all over me on this subject.

Never claimed to be a professional. I asked a simple question about hood clearance. It was answered by many people above your first post. You are the one that decided to sh1t all over it genius.

[patrickt]

Well I think we should just forget the whole unpleasant incident. Chas, I think you should tell both Jeff and LH that you're sorry and that you promise not to do it again.

[Jeff Frigo]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

So you put a wood block under your carb and tell me the open top is ugly.
Spacers either add 6HP or cost 6HP (which you can't feel or measure unless you're running strip laps) and need to be dyno coordinated to an intake system. They are not a toy-du-jour for performance improvements. This little tinker project was stupid to start with and what I told you was to prevent what you found out.
Test it without the AC in place to see if your choice is able to help. If it picks up, then get the Xtreme top if you want power-if you're a lawn-chair guy, then forget I tried to help...
And I won't make that mistake again.

I said maybe wood, its phenolic. "This little tinker project was stupid to start with and what I told you was to prevent what you found out." Are you smoking crack? What did I find out, that it fit? What did you prevent? "Spacers either add 6HP or cost 6HP " Oh guru, tell me where you get this from. I have never seen a test where an engine lost power. I have seen tests that pick up as much as 28 hp. You are right not soup dujur. If you read my post, I joked about seat of the pants. Must have been more of that invisible ink. 6 HP from extreme top, maybe, ugly, definantly (sp), wouldn't use it if you gave me one.

[ERA Chas]

I though I was a well-intentioned contributor...

[RodKnock]

I have four things to add.

Did you guys see that Michigan-Notre Dame game? That was awesome.

I think the only proper way to add HP is to build an all-aluminum SOHC engine and drop into the engine bay.

I'm very surprised that Patrick hasn't inserted some sort of nonsensical picture since everything else he's provided to further this BBQ is totally useless as usual.

Turkey pan, dropped base and Stelling & Helling air cleaner lid. Just saying.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm very surprised that Patrick hasn't inserted some sort of nonsensical picture since everything else he's provided to further this BBQ is totally useless as usual.

WTF? I've been playing the peacemaker here. Yessirrreee, open outstretched hand, that's me. Forgive and forget. I can't help it that Chas continues to play the role of the pompous ass who tees off on any innocent bystander that happens to blindly stumble in to his path. I just want everyone to get along. Yep, that's all I want.

[Jerry Clayton]

Patrickt

I believe this thread was kind of out of bounds as far as being an earnest question or dialogue about the OP questi

And you stepped over the line in post #26 ---you seem to relish hammering on Chas, but in this post he has more info about the subject matter than probably anyone and you push the meds-----

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

And you stepped over the line in post #29 ---you seem to relish hammering on Chas, but in this post he has more info about the subject matter than probably anyone and you push the meds-----

Jerry, as man of wisdom and taste, I'll take your recommendations to heart and, further, take this opportunity to apologize to Chas. Hopefully he will find it in his heart to forgive me.

[PLDRIVE]

Chas is right on the spacer. It may or may not add power. You need to be able to compare (dyno). I do not believe John Kasse picked one off the shelf (engine masters) and said this is the one! (lots of testing)

[lovehamr]

Let me be the first to say that I NEVER said that I was an expert. Perhaps you should take a break from posing as a tech expert and learn to read. And I’ll say this again: Comments like these are what make you such a freaking wanker!

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Can you expert jockeys feel that on the street with your Fisher-Price combinations??

What really kills me is that you tout yourself as an expert because you were a salesman and a Purchasing mgr.? Then you rattle off a bunch of names as though their knowledge and experience have somehow leached into you through osmosis. One of the names that you mentioned was Barry R., a man who’s opinion I DO value and quite greatly. And yet all of this BS is about a pile of crap air cleaner lid which Barry already told you was of dubious value.

Lets see what Barry R said in 2006: August 10 2010, 7:31 AM
“Extreme lid gained 1.5 points on the EMC combo October 10 2006, 7:51 PM
Rules specify a 14x3 element.
Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

and January 20 2008, 11:02 AM:
Dunno 'bout that
My last two EMC motors both picked up a small amount on average on the dyno. Only 1-2 more HP - but undeniably there. Certainly did not hurt. Back to back tests both times about five minutes apart. Both ways too - tried going back to the flat lid & lost.
Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com”

I’m assuming that since you were the secretary then that you were writing all of that down right? What? Were you just afflicted with CRS? And to think, you were bagging on Jeff's spacer. You even admitted that you were wrong about spacers in your latest post, 6hp vs. 18hp. Just in case CRS has set in again, here’s a recap:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Spacers either add 6HP or cost 6HP

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

We saw max gains of 18HP

So which is it? Actually, don’t even try to put together a response. After reading more of your sputtering sentence fragments and hollow chest beating everyone here would be dumber for having read it. And really, my problem with your posts isn’t even the accuracy of the information in them. It’s the stupid personal attacks for no apparent reason. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, including you. It’s when you go beyond your salesman’s OPINION and start insulting others from behind the safety of your keyboard that slots you solidly into the wanker column.

[tkb289]

If I can jump in here for a few quick questions ...


========

Originally Posted by Bobcat

... do ERA`s motor mount mod to the driver side mount to reduce motor torqueing ...

Bob

Bob ... what is the ERA motor mount mod ?

========

To All ...

- Assuming new rubber motor mounts that are properly installed, is there any rule of thumb estimate as to how far a motor will typically move side to side (torque over) under load at WOT ?

- If looking at the air cleaner from the font of the car, with 12 o'clock nearest the firewall and 6 o'clock nearest the radiator, which position on the edge of the air cleaner would tend to hit?

- Any consensus as to a best practice dimension for air cleaner to hood clearance ? I am thinking 1/2" clearance should be enough room to avoid rubbing for most cases, short of having a broken or loose motor mount. Too much ... too little ... Any thoughts?

========


... Thanks !

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tkb289

...what is the ERA motor mount mod ?

It's the old "bolt throught the mount" trick. You only need to do it on the driver's side. Left engine mount modifications

[Bobcat]

tkb289 .... I decided to stay out of this thing as the thread degenerated .... however , getting back to your original question , the ERA mount modification is what Patrick has already answered . What it does is limit the amount of engine movement under load ( torque ) .... and is somewhat adjustable as you can change the preload by tightening the bolt . As I pointed out , the engine will want to rotate towards the passenger side under full throttle and this limits it somewhat . Where you might run into some contact is when you get off the throttle quickly and the engine settles back to the other side ... which is where mine just touches the underside of the hood ( off throttle quickly under WOT track conditions ) .... at about 8:30 am/pm per your reference . I have the motor mount mod as I also put the car on the track some and do a lot of WOT and hard shifting . I have not hard any contact on the driver`s side at all .
I measured my filter element last night and it is 3 1/4" top to bottom and 14" diameter . I could have picked up more clearance by using a 2 3/4" element , but wanted the larger element for less restriction .

Bob

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

tkb289 .... I decided to stay out of this thing as the thread degenerated ....

To all who have degenerated this thread:

If you can't have a cordial, civil technical discussion, then step out of this thread and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

We want to see info threads stay above the line; take any personal knocks off line via PM

thanks
ron
ClubCobra Moderator

[tkb289]

Patrick,

Good link ... I'll bet that Bob P. at ERA to came up with that motor mount mod, very clever.


Bob,

Sounds like quick throttle transitions is worse case for torque motion of the motor, and you have your car setup to avoid any air cleaner to hood contact.


Jeff,

Thanks for letting me side track your tread ... you have an ERA 427 car ... I have an ERA 289 car ... and I now know that motor mount set ups are not the same. I suspect as well that there are less issues with torque rotation of the motor in the 289 cars, as the motors have substantially less torque.

Back to the 427 discussion ...