Old School 427 or Modular 5.0?

[DanEC]

Not sure if this will clarify anything but this chart on engine weights is pretty interesting. I pasted part of it below. Looks like an iron FE is about 125 lbs more than an iron 351W.

http://fixrambler.com/engineweightchart.txt

Ford BOSS 302 500 (48)
Ford 351 Cleveland 550 (48) (includes BOSS and Australian 302-C)
Ford 351 Windsor 510
Ford 351 Windsor 525 (48) (168)
Ford 351M-400 575 (48)
Ford Y block V8 625 (272-312 CID)
Ford FE big block 650 (332-428 CID)
Ford FE big block 670 (1) ('59 352 CID)
Ford FE 625 (48)
Ford 427 SOHC 680 (48)
Ford 429/460 V8 640
Ford 429-460 720 (48)
Ford 460 V8 720 (10)
Ford BOSS 429 680 (iron block, aluminum heads)
Ford BOSS 429 635 (48)
Ford 4.6 SOHC 530 (93) iron block, aluminum heads
Ford 4.6 SOHC 473 (72)
Ford 4.6 SOHC 600 (168) (Mustang)
Ford 4.6 DOHC 464 (72) "9 pounds lighter than SOHC"
Ford 4.6 DOHC 437 (77) without accessories
Ford 4.6 DOHC 521 (94) aluminum block and heads
Ford 4.6 DOHC 576 (168) (Mustang)
Ford 4.6L (SOHC) 529 (231) w/flywheel 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford 4.6L (SOHC) 492 (231) w/flexplate 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford 4.6L (DOHC) 535 (231) 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford Taurus SHO 3.2 V8 390 (229) Taurus SHO V8, no accessories

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

... An iron FE block weighs from 195-210 lbs and an aluminum Pond FE block weighs 120-125 for a weight saving of aprox 75 lbs ---also Edelbrock heads will save 50 lbs over iron Ford heads--------

An iron 351 w is near 575 and a Dart iron block/alum heads at 465-470-

Always funny how the BB guys always forget about the Dart Aluminum block when comparing to an aluminum Pond FE block lol.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Always funny how the BB guys always forget about the Dart Aluminum block when comparing to an aluminum Pond FE block lol.

I won't forget.

Pond Aluminum FE Block = 120 lbs.
Shelby Aluminum FE Block = 125 lbs.

427 Ford Engine Block, Pond Engine Blocks FAQ
Finished Block 427 FE | Call Us @ 310-538-2914 | Carroll Shelby Engine Company

Aluminum Dart 351W
9.5 = 93 lbs. (9.2 = 91 lbs.)

http://www.dartheads.com/wp-content/...mall-Block.pdf

Difference = 120-93 = 27 lbs.

I'll betcha most of us around here carry 27 extra lbs of fat on their bodies that, if lost, would make that difference negligible.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'll betcha most of us around here carry 27 extra lbs of fat on their bodies that, if lost, would make that difference negligible.

Which they could drop, using nothing more than the trusty speed rope, if they would just get off their butts and exercise instead of posting on dumb threads like this one.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Which they could drop, using nothing more than the trusty speed rope, if they would just get off their butts and exercise instead of posting on dumb threads like this one.

This coming from "Captain Dumb Thread" himself.

Speed rope? Hey, let's start small and have people walking away from "health foods" like the Broccoli Beef, vegetable chow mein, General Zhou's chicken.

And then maybe a walk.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I won't forget.

Pond Aluminum FE Block = 120 lbs.
Shelby Aluminum FE Block = 125 lbs.

427 Ford Engine Block, Pond Engine Blocks FAQ
Finished Block 427 FE | Call Us @ 310-538-2914 | Carroll Shelby Engine Company

Aluminum Dart 351W
9.5 = 93 lbs. (9.2 = 91 lbs.)

http://www.dartheads.com/wp-content/...mall-Block.pdf

Difference = 120-93 = 27 lbs.

I'll betcha most of us around here carry 27 extra lbs of fat on their bodies that, if lost, would make that difference negligible.

No, it would still be 27 pounds, BB guys go on a diet, then the SM block guys go on a diet - we ain't giving you nutt'in

For this debate to really quantify weight difference, need to hang both crate motors from a hydra set, the block is not the only discriminator here.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

No, it would still be 27 pounds, BB guys go on a diet, then the SM block guys go on a diet - we ain't giving you nutt'in

For this debate to really quantify weight difference, need to hang both crate motors from a hydra set, the block is not the only discriminator here.

Research shows that drivers of FE-powered Cobras have a lower % of body-fat than any other Cobra owners with Mods, Windsors or 385-series.

No, the block is not the only part that has a weight difference, but the rest can't amount to much. Certainly nothing significant.

[Jerry Clayton]

If you want to talk weighs in a high performance or race vehicle you have to keep your eye on the bouncing ball and get away from shipping weights or web based crate engines--------

The FE is probably only about 30 lbs (or less) more than a Windsor based engine(I'm not talking 289/302)----the internal components will be almost identical in weights with comparable strokes------In fact the 427FE crank can be quite a bit lighter than your run of mill 351 4 inch stroker crank-------Pistons will vary some depending on CH and the dome/dish volumes but can be lightened in any case---wrist pins can be varied for any weight and rods will maybe vary 100 grams(only about 4 oz)
Oil pump, distributor will be equal, water pump/front coverfairly equal in aluminum----
The FE cylinder heads are some of the lightest anywhere and the alum ones will save 25 lbs per side--FE iron manifolds aren't even considered except on heavy duty trucks so won't look at a weight savings there except it will be a few pounds more than a 351w---

Starters and alternators will be equal and everyone should be using the new smaller compact sizes on either power plant

All this just comes down to there is a large following of the notion that the Windsor based 427 is a ton lighter than the 427 FE and it just isn't so--------

[itstock]

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

if you want to talk weighs in a high performance or race vehicle you have to keep your eye on the bouncing ball and get away from shipping weights or web based crate engines--------

the fe is probably only about 30 lbs (or less) more than a windsor based engine(i'm not talking 289/302)----the internal components will be almost identical in weights with comparable strokes------in fact the 427fe crank can be quite a bit lighter than your run of mill 351 4 inch stroker crank-------pistons will vary some depending on ch and the dome/dish volumes but can be lightened in any case---wrist pins can be varied for any weight and rods will maybe vary 100 grams(only about 4 oz)
oil pump, distributor will be equal, water pump/front coverfairly equal in aluminum----
the fe cylinder heads are some of the lightest anywhere and the alum ones will save 25 lbs per side--fe iron manifolds aren't even considered except on heavy duty trucks so won't look at a weight savings there except it will be a few pounds more than a 351w---

starters and alternators will be equal and everyone should be using the new smaller compact sizes on either power plant

all this just comes down to there is a large following of the notion that the windsor based 427 is a ton lighter than the 427 fe and it just isn't so--------

:lol:

so YOU don't know. Or you don't want to say. Thanks.

Just think of all of the time you wasted to get "about" measurements.

[PLDRIVE]

MJJ
425 to 475 HP is a mild windsor. In this horsepower range it will behave very well. I would look in the 427CI to 445CI range (a windsor will go out to 468CI). A SBF in this cubic Inch range will make plenty of low end TQ.


Stack injections are beautiful to look at, but will require good tuning skills. They also do not like restrictive filters (it will kill the HP).





Istock
"calms" = smooths out the cam. IR manifolds do not pulse in the same manner as single plenum manifold.

[MJJ]

Originally Posted by PLDRIVE

MJJ
425 to 475 HP is a mild windsor. In this horsepower range it will behave very well. I would look in the 427CI to 445CI range (a windsor will go out to 468CI). A SBF in this cubic Inch range will make plenty of low end TQ.


Stack injections are beautiful to look at, but will require good tuning skills. They also do not like restrictive filters (it will kill the HP).





Istock
"calms" = smooths out the cam. IR manifolds do not pulse in the same manner as single plenum manifold.

Thanks for the feedback.

In the GT500 world there are 2-3 premier tuners that are considered the best Like Jon Lund or Justin Starkey.

Is their an EFI "tuning god" in the 427w/eight stack world?

[PLDRIVE]

Yes there out their. I know of 2 the are very good. The most common issue with IR manifolds is idle and partial power. The runners need to be balanced very close to each other. ( pulling the exact same vacuum, and all blades opening at the same time and traveling within the same Arc). If the runners are not balanced equally then a popping sounding will be heard, and or EFI computer will struggle to adjust the Air fuel ratio. Even the best computer will fail unless U follow my advise.
So what does all this mean? once the engine is in the CAR, take it to a good tuner and let him show u how to do it. It will require small adjustments every so often. It may take several hours (first time) repetitively adjusting each blade until all are balanced.


MJJ a large no. of cobra owners wish they would have asked for more horsepower when they had their engines built. Why not build for more power and tune several different MAPs. 1 detuned map (large amount of timing and fuel pulled) and 1 more VISCERAL map.

A windsor will make an easy 550 to 580 HP (how do i know?? see link) and be very streetable, and the stack will make it a joy to drive.


463 IR Windsor


MJJ feel free to send me a PM if i can help.


Mark

[Skuzzy]

Working from some level of long term memory, I recall an all iron 351W weighing about 140 pounds less than an all iron FE.

Replace the iron components, in both, with aluminum (block, heads, intake, water pump) and the gap closes a bit. Around 110 pounds difference, if I recall. It will vary some based on which aluminum components used.

All the main engine parts are smaller on a modern Windsor. Crank mains are the same size, rods are shorter, rod throws are smaller, crankshaft is shorter, block is smaller, heads are shorter, and so on.

[Dimis]

Yes, Yes, Yes, the Windsor is lighter that the FE... So what...?

I'm guessing a miata engine is lighter than the Windsor, but you don't see many entertaining that in a cobra. You've got to draw the line somewhere, and some draw it at the FE for an SC...

Now if we were building a FIA or Slabside cobra, then we could talk Windsor...
Else, this discussion is folly

...and the OP will chose whatever tickles his fancy anyway, and happily drive away into the sunset.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Yes, Yes, Yes, the Windsor is lighter that the FE... So what...?

I'm guessing a miata engine is lighter than the Windsor, but you don't see many entertaining that in a cobra. You've got to draw the line somewhere, and some draw it at the FE for an SC...

Now if we were building a FIA or Slabside cobra, then we could talk Windsor...
Else, this discussion is folly

...and the OP will chose whatever tickles his fancy anyway, and happily drive away into the sunset.

Go back and read OP's introductory post, you just trumped patrickt for the "Captain Dumb" award lol.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Go back and read OP's introductory post, you just trumped patrickt for the "Captain Dumb" award lol.

... add deaf and blind to that as well. We FE owners can neither hear, speak, nor see anything other than an FE in a 427 car.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... add deaf and blind to that as well. We FE owners can neither hear, speak, nor see anything other than an FE in a 427 car.

I have heard that you have your PHD. in Cobraology? I think that must be true , because you Pile. it High. and Deep

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Go back and read OP's introductory post, you just trumped patrickt for the "Captain Dumb" award lol.

Really? How so?


Enjoy your day.