TA-31 and FE oil pan questions

lippy · #1 (**permalink**) 10-27-2014, 10:48 PM

A few months ago I changed out my oil pan gaskets. I have a Pond aluminum FE block and an Aviaid pan with a windage tray. I used the FelPro gaskets, glued them to the windage tray using Permatex Hi-tack red gasket cement, and used TA-31 between the gasket and the block, and between the other gasket and the pan. I was very careful to make sure everything was perfectly clean (I used brake cleaner on all surfaces) and flat (I checked the surfaces on a piece of plate glass and didn't over torque).

I apparently did something wrong because it started to leak again. A bit of a PITA but no huge deal, part of the learning process. I took the pan off tonight and expected to have a heck of a time removing the pan. Once I drained it and scored around the gaskets with a utility knife, it came off fairly easily. The gaskets were glued well to the windage tray with the Permatex cement, but it looks like the TA-31 did not adhere very well to the block, or to the pan. I'm wondering if brake cleaner didn't do the job, or if, during the time it took to put everything together (I tried to work quickly), the TA-31 skinned and wasn't tacky enough by the time I torqued everything down. I also think I didn't torque the bolts down frequently enough after it went through a few heat cycles and that contributed to the leak.

My questions are:
- Has anyone had the same problem with TA-31? Any hints?
- Is brake cleaner adequate to clean the surfaces?
- Do you usually roughen up the surfaces?
- Is it advisable to use blue Loctite on the pan bolts so they don't loosen?
- How many times/when do you retorque the bolts right after you install the pan?

This time around I'm using the Milodon crush-proof gaskets. Also, I'm almost thinking it may be better to use the Permatex Hi-tack on all four surfaces, except for the fact that it is a very thin coating and won't fill in the stamped flutes on the pan. Maybe it would be good to use it on three surfaces and just use the TA-31 between the lower gasket and the pan.

Any help and fine points would be appreciated. Thanks.

Ron61 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 01:50 AM

Just my opinion but I don't use brake cleaner to clean any places that I use gaskets and sealer. It seems to have a slight oily finish that needs to be cleaned off. I use an alcohol based cleaner and then dry that with a rag after I am sure that everything is clean. So far, and maybe just lucky, I have never had a gasket or seal leak. As for the oil pan bolts I check mine every few times I drive it as they do tend to loosen once in a while. I would not use loctite on the bolts as you may want to take it off later. The best thing is just to spend a few minutes checking them every so often. After racing I used to spend a day going over my whole car checking all bolts with a torque wrench.

Ron

blykins · #3 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 02:59 AM

It does make a difference if it's chlorinated or non-chlorinated brake cleaner. One will leave a residue and the other won't. I'm having trouble remembering which is which right now, just started on my morning coffee, but I can find out.

I hate gaskets.

Gaz64 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 03:21 AM

Every engine I have assembled (customers or my own) does not get oil added until the sealant has FULLY set.

Oil will creep if an RTV sealant has not set.

Sounds like you have done a good job, cleanliness, flat surface etc, but there might be a "gap" in your procedure.

I agree with Blykins, I hate gaskets as well.

philminotti · #5 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 03:48 AM

It sounds like you were meticulous during the assembly….just make sure you're not chasing a leak from somewhere else.

That being said, I have the same block and pan as you and I used Milodon gaskets. I used The Right Stuff on all mating surfaces. No leaks. Of course, it will be damn near impossible to get the pan off if I ever have to . That stuff is brutal.

I do like TA-31 though. I used it on my intake, which had front and rear gaps large enough for small rodents to crawl through and no leaks. And TA-31 is far easier to disassemble than The Right Stuff. I'm kind of surprised that the TA-31 isn't working out for you.

To answer some of your questions:

I used brake cleaner. Lots. I'm sure I have liver cancer already.
I didn't roughen any surface.
One word: STUDS
No loctite
No retorque

And I'm sure you know this, but don't over torque that pan. I did my first time and dimpled the snot out of it. It took me several hours with a ball peen hammer to fix it.

Rick Parker · #6 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 07:45 AM

Studs & mechanical locking Jet nuts, & "The Right Stuff" instead of RTV..

lippy · #7 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

It does make a difference if it's chlorinated or non-chlorinated brake cleaner. One will leave a residue and the other won't. I'm having trouble remembering which is which right now, just started on my morning coffee, but I can find out.

I used non-chlorinated. You can't get the good stuff if CA.

lippy · #8 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 08:51 AM

I'm going to use acetone to clean the surfaces this time and maybe try Right Stuff between the top gasket and block, and bottom gasket and pan. I was looking at the instructions for Right Stuff and it says everything needs to be put together and torqued in 5 min. Considering there is a windage tray, oil pickup, and about 20 bolts and studs to assemble, how is it even remotely possible to get everything torqued in 5 min? How do you use this stuff when there is a lot to assemble?

blykins · #9 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 08:54 AM

I just did David Brown's FE with Right Stuff and no Permatex. Waited 24 hours before I put oil in it, no problems. You have a little longer than 5 minutes, and obviously the gasket will do its job too.

Bernica · #10 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 12:46 PM

TA-31 is good stuff. I am also surprised you had issues with it.

I also like the TA-29 in the squeeze tube which is pretty impressive.

I have used denatured alcohol in the past to clean mating surfaces and had good results with no apparent residue. It works great cleaning up brake fluid too.

lippy · #11 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 01:35 PM

Anyone try the Stage8 locking pan bolts? I wonder if it's worth the effort. The are available on Amazon. #8941 BB CHEVY, FORD, MOPAR, OILPAN KIT*| Stage 8

Bernica · #12 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 01:39 PM

I have not used them yet but they look great. Next time I have to do header bolts I think that's what I'm going to try.

undy · #13 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernica

I have not used them yet but they look great. Next time I have to do header bolts I think that's what I'm going to try.

I use stage 8s on anything I have with headers. Since their use header leaks are non-existent.

Tom Wells · #14 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 05:21 PM

lippy,

x^2 on the alcohol to clean the surfaces before applying any sealant. The cleaner, drier and more oil-free, the better!

Tom

Dwight · #15 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 05:47 PM

denatured alcohol

not that 30% water stuff

Dwight

Tim7139 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 07:13 PM

FE block, studs/nuts, Canton pan with windage tray. Use Right Stuff for everything. Two Canton gaskets. First one between block and tray, lightly bolt on tray to set sealant overnight. Next day use second gasket sealed both sides for the pan and final bolt on. Everything now dry and tight.

lippy · #17 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 07:38 PM

I decided to use Canton studs all around (https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-PAN-STUD-KIT/), Milodon gaskets, Permatex Hi-tack to glue the gaskets to the windage tray, and Right Stuff between the upper gasket/block, and between the lower gasket pan. I already cleaned checked the flatness of the pan and tray on a piece of plate glass and made some minor adjustments with a body hammer, and cleaned everything carefully with acetone. The studs should be here tomorrow so I'll see how it goes.

I liked Rick's idea of using jet nuts, but I want to use a torque wrench and I don't think they give an accurate torque reading. The serrated nuts that come with the Canton kit should do a good job anyway. I also considered the Stage8 kit but those bolts are only 1/2" and I don't think they are long enough to engage the right amount of threads in the block.

Bernica · #18 (**permalink**) 10-28-2014, 09:44 PM

I always keep a couple extra. Thankfully, they still are just hanging on the wall?

lippy · #19 (**permalink**) 10-30-2014, 01:48 PM

Phil, Rick, and Tim - great call on the studs. I think they work much better than the bolts. The only downside I can see is having to remove the studs if I disassemble in the future. I used the Canton ones I referenced above. What a great deal for $11, from Summit. Everything is stainless, they have the good locking nuts, and the studs have hexes. The ARPs are $60+ and don't have the hexes, and the rest of the cheaper ones are black oxide.

At any rate, the studs worked well because I could take my time cleaning them and making sure they were installed at the same height (3/4" from block surface). I used Permatex Hi-tack to glue both Milodon gaskets to the windage tray, text fit everything after I did my best to make sure the pan and tray were flat, and then applied Right Stuff to the top gasket on the windage tray. It was a snap to put it on the block because the studs held it in place. I then applied Right Stuff to the pan and installed it. Another nice thing about the studs is that the nuts go on so quickly if they are clean. Two more things: I used Acetone to clean everything, and I used stainless washers under the nuts so I don't chew up the pan. Torqued to 5 ft-lb, then 8 ft-lb, retorqued an hour later, and I will let it sit for a day or two before adding oil.

Seemed to go really well and I hope there are no leaks this time around. Thanks for the help.

Tim7139 · #20 (**permalink**) 11-01-2014, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lippy

Phil, Rick, and Tim - great call on the studs. I think they work much better than the bolts. The only downside I can see is having to remove the studs if I disassemble in the future. I used the Canton ones I referenced above. What a great deal for $11, from Summit. Everything is stainless, they have the good locking nuts, and the studs have hexes. The ARPs are $60+ and don't have the hexes, and the rest of the cheaper ones are black oxide.

At any rate, the studs worked well because I could take my time cleaning them and making sure they were installed at the same height (3/4" from block surface). I used Permatex Hi-tack to glue both Milodon gaskets to the windage tray, text fit everything after I did my best to make sure the pan and tray were flat, and then applied Right Stuff to the top gasket on the windage tray. It was a snap to put it on the block because the studs held it in place. I then applied Right Stuff to the pan and installed it. Another nice thing about the studs is that the nuts go on so quickly if they are clean. Two more things: I used Acetone to clean everything, and I used stainless washers under the nuts so I don't chew up the pan. Torqued to 5 ft-lb, then 8 ft-lb, retorqued an hour later, and I will let it sit for a day or two before adding oil.

Seemed to go really well and I hope there are no leaks this time around. Thanks for the help.

Zero problem on the stud removal. I've actually removed mine prior to popping the pan. It makes working a pan removal blade so much easier when typing it down the pan until it finally separates, also cleaning the block. Everything cleaned up with brake lean and you have nice clean fasteners, far less likely to back out. Those serrated Canton nuts, however, are designed to be washerless. Moderate torque and they grab the pan quite nicely.

In a prior life I owned a 356 Roadster for many years, you become quite adept at leak management.