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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:40 AM
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This would be a good thing..............
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2015, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bret a ewing View Post
This would be a good thing..............
Marginally. The rules as I read them would allow a small manufactuer (e.g., Superformance) to sell a completed vehicle with power train. But that power train would have to meet current emissions requirements. So you could build a Cobra with an engine but it would have to have a (for example) Coyote engine complete with catalytic converters.

While some replicas may benefit, most Cobras would not. Who wants a Cobra with a muffled/cat'd exhaust? I'm not even sure there would be room for cats even in an undercar exhaust configuration.
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Old 09-02-2015, 04:43 PM
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That's exactly what scares me about this bill. Will it affect a car I build at home and install a period correct engine? Will that car now have to pass current emissions standards? Will each state interpret the law differently and make it apply to all cars completed at home?
I see it pertains to manufactures who build small numbers of specialty cars per year but what about my car? A replica with a modern engine isn't a replica.
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Old 09-02-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
Marginally. The rules as I read them would allow a small manufactuer (e.g., Superformance) to sell a completed vehicle with power train. But that power train would have to meet current emissions requirements. So you could build a Cobra with an engine but it would have to have a (for example) Coyote engine complete with catalytic converters.

While some replicas may benefit, most Cobras would not. Who wants a Cobra with a muffled/cat'd exhaust? I'm not even sure there would be room for cats even in an undercar exhaust configuration.
Fit the side pipes with catalytic converters. See this link: Catalytic Converters

The Cobra builders in the U.K. and Australia have been facing this for a while now, and AK even makes a special converter than installs ahead of the side pipes: Exhaust Side Pipes 5" with Catalytic Converters - AK Sportscars - Cobra Replica Kit Car

Edit: Added the following

Magnaflow makes 4" OD converters in 2.5", 3" and 3.5" inlet versions (smaller as well), that s/b able to be fitted to side pipes: http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...4956/overview/ http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...4959/overview/

Flowmaster makes them as well, as do a number of other manufacturers.

Vibrant makes a 3.5" inlet, 4.5" OD 'Ultra High Output' converter - high flow for high HP engines.

Bottom line is that, while converter placement in side pipes is probably not the ideal location, there are 'off the shelf' solutions available. I'm sure Superformance or other 'Small Volume Manufacturers' could also get custom converters built if that was necessary to sell additional cars.

Given the sound deadening / muffling which occurs in catalytic converters, would side pipe mufflers even be necessary or would the converters be enough?
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Old 09-02-2015, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
I'm not even sure there would be room for cats even in an undercar exhaust configuration.
Google "AC MK IV"...fully catalytic.... pre cats and bigger cats under car with full street type exhaust. EPA tested and approved back in the Windsor 5.0 days. The cats are smaller with pre-heaters today so easier to package.
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Old 12-06-2015, 12:17 PM
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Wow, it looks like this is on!

Small-volume carmakers get a big break in Motor Vehicle Safety Act | Autoweek

How many Cobra manufacturers will offer completed vehicles as an option? I don't think the appeal would really be there in Cobra land, since the cats and pipes would likely have to be under car, and right now limited to the Chevy LS power plant. I expect Ford would soon have a compliant Coyote though.

(Tom Kirkham posted the link above but I thought it would be relevant to close off this topic)
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2015, 04:51 PM
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This could get ugly. I see this as evolving from 'another option' to the only option. Certain legislative types will say "Well we don't need California's SB100 program anymore" and shut it down. Similar limiting legislation may happen in other states to eliminate the kit-car option and leave the federal option as the only option.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:01 PM
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It’s been over two years since the passage of the Low Volume Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Act, which lays out a special set of provisions for small auto manufacturers in the United States. Established manufacturers, fresh entrepreneurs and potential buyers have looked on, patiently waiting to take advantage of the new system, but still we’re stuck in limbo. There’s not much out there on the web, so we went straight to our source, Stuart Gosswein, senior director of Federal Government Affairs for Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA), for an update.

If this is your first introduction to the low-volume bill, we suggest you get up to speed with our original comprehensive look at the law, but here’s a quick introduction for the time being. Included within a highway funding bill in 2015, the Low Volume Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Act creates a separate set of rules for manufacturers selling 325 or less replica vehicles per year in the United States. These companies will be permitted to sell complete vehicles without having to comply with some current NHTSA safety standards, and without going through expensive crash testing. However, the vehicles still need to comply with Environmental Protection Agency and/or California Air Resources Board emissions standards through the use of modern engine packages.

The key here is that these are complete, turnkey vehicles, a departure from the “kit car” approach that the entire low-volume industry has leaned on for years. This approach relied on a legal definition that stipulated a vehicle was only considered parts until the engine and drivetrain were installed. For this reason, the low-volume market has consisted of mostly kit cars and complete “rollers,” or “turnkey minus” vehicles.

Getting back to the current status of the bill, we find that its implementation continues to be bogged down by bureaucracy. When passed in 2015, the EPA and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration were given 12 months to issue any necessary regulations to implement the law, but the deadline passed without consequence. The documents are now in various stages of completion.

The EPA still needs to issue a finalized guidance document for approving compliant engine packages. SEMA reviewed and supported the EPA’s draft document and is awaiting issuance of the final guidance document. CARB is working through its engine package regulations, and those are expected later this summer. The big player, NHTSA, has yet to provide even a draft of their regulations, citing that several key NHTSA appointed positions remain unfilled and that the organization has its hands full with airbag and autonomous vehicle concerns.

The documentation that NHTSA is required to issue is not that complex either. Among other things, they need to give instructions on how low-volume manufacturers can register with NHTSA and report the vehicles they sell in a given year. Seeking to expedite the process, SEMA suggested ways to register and start production while NHTSA continues to draft the regulations, but NHTSA has yet to approve or comment on the recommendation. SEMA is urging the program to be in operation before the end of 2018, but unfortunately NHTSA is not really held to any time frame.

Now that we’re up to speed on these idling documents, we should address some confusion regarding GM’s CARB Executive Order on the LS3 E-ROD. A CARB Executive Order is a document indicating that an aftermarket component will not negatively affect a vehicle’s emission system, allowing it to be used legally in California. Since engines do in fact affect emissions, a CARB EO is technically required for some engine swaps, but the LS3 E-ROD is the only engine package to hold a CARB EO. It’s interesting to note that the EO for the LS3 actually expired some time ago, but GM has submitted the paperwork to renew it for 2019. The engine continues to be available to hobbyists for kit cars and specially constructed vehicles, and will also be available for replica car manufacturers producing turnkey cars in 2019. Gosswein states that several other engine manufacturers also hope to apply for CARB EOs once the law takes affect.

Under the new federal law, engine packages approved through the CARB EO program can be installed in replica cars produced in 49 states. For California, however, there was a glitch that CARB is now fixing. The EO program only applies to enthusiasts and installers, not vehicle manufacturers. So CARB officials are now creating companion regulations to be finalized this summer to cover low-volume manufacturers in California (along with the other 49 states).

If you’re looking for more good news on the low volume front, we do have another detail for you. Gosswein relayed to us that while the appointed position of NHTSA administrator continues to be unfilled, there is a new acting administrator who is terrific to work with. The hope is that he may be willing to allow production to start while the regulations are being drafted.

As a legal representative for us in the automotive hobby, SEMA has been delivering a message to government regulators that we can all get behind. Our low-volume manufacturers are waiting to hire workers, build new facilities and contract with suppliers. And customers, both foreign and domestic, are eager to buy. The program is not a loophole for making unsafe cars that don’t play by the same rules. It is instead, a great opportunity to reshape a big part of the collector car market, while working together with regulators to build safe, clean vehicles that generate revenue and tax dollars. All of us in the low-volume automotive hobby have been very patient, but after two years’ idling, we’re ready to step on the gas.

Source: https://www.rcnmag.com/news/low-volu...ers-act-update
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:29 PM
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I suspect that there was not as much demand for vehicles that would have been built under this plan or we would have seen the manufacturers themselves lobbying for action. Like I said when this first started that there wasn't going to be a sudden surge of Cobras with modern Chevy engines. Most people that get a replica that would be eligible for this also want a period correct power train.
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:23 PM
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I suspect that there was not as much demand for vehicles that would have been built under this plan or we would have seen the manufacturers themselves lobbying for action. Like I said when this first started that there wasn't going to be a sudden surge of Cobras with modern Chevy engines. Most people that get a replica that would be eligible for this also want a period correct power train.
Maybe they've been lobbied by Ford to drag this out until the blue oval comes up with emissions legal crate engines.
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Old 03-26-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
I suspect that there was not as much demand for vehicles that would have been built under this plan or we would have seen the manufacturers themselves lobbying for action. Like I said when this first started that there wasn't going to be a sudden surge of Cobras with modern Chevy engines. Most people that get a replica that would be eligible for this also want a period correct power train.
No,

The players have been lobbying, but they are a grain of sand in the Washington swamp dominated by the NRA, Koch brothers, etc.

Ford can and will offer a certified package when it is needed. Even GM let their certification lapse so understand this is not much of a profit center for the Big Three, it is bragging rights and promotion.
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Old 03-27-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LMH View Post
That's exactly what scares me about this bill. Will it affect a car I build at home and install a period correct engine? Will that car now have to pass current emissions standards? Will each state interpret the law differently and make it apply to all cars completed at home?
I see it pertains to manufactures who build small numbers of specialty cars per year but what about my car? A replica with a modern engine isn't a replica.
Larry
Folks,

I'm for leaving well enough alone. How many "replicas" (Cobra and others) have been built over the years? Thousands. Granted, some of our united states treat these cars differently, and some states' residents may have a tougher time getting registered due to quirks in a particular state's regulations.

When you let Uncle Sam get his nose under the tent, you open up a whole new can of worms. Some issues have been mentioned above, like catalytics.

And don't think it will only apply to newly-built machines. Sooner or later, regulatory creep will set in. government regulators are never happy unless they can invent new areas of control to widen their area of responsibility and ensure their job security.

Just ask - when did the government dabble in a field and not screw it up?

Just my humble opinion.

Bill
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Old 03-27-2018, 02:20 PM
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Folks,

I'm for leaving well enough alone. How many "replicas" (Cobra and others) have been built over the years? Thousands. Granted, some of our united states treat these cars differently, and some states' residents may have a tougher time getting registered due to quirks in a particular state's regulations.

When you let Uncle Sam get his nose under the tent, you open up a whole new can of worms. Some issues have been mentioned above, like catalytics.

And don't think it will only apply to newly-built machines. Sooner or later, regulatory creep will set in. government regulators are never happy unless they can invent new areas of control to widen their area of responsibility and ensure their job security.

Just ask - when did the government dabble in a field and not screw it up?

Just my humble opinion.

Bill
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:23 AM
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Polio, moon landing, Hubble, Interstate highways, the DARPA designed internet and the list goes on. I know its popular to tear down but thinking counts.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:19 AM
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Hear hear! Common sense is in short supply these days ...
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Old 01-19-2021, 04:21 PM
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Apparently this rule has been officially passed after being held up 5 years. I would expect we’ll hear more about complete turnkey cars soon from cobra manufacturers.
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/01/19/...r-sales-legal/
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Old 01-19-2021, 05:12 PM
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I think the regulation has been around for a while, but so far none of the majors has signed up for volume production of Cobra replicas. The biggest problem in the Cobra space is a compliant engine. In the US the only one so far is a Chevy LS3. Ford hasn't submitted the Coyote for it (at least that was the case last time I checked) and we know that the overall Coyote penetration into the Cobra space is fairly limited.

Plus, it's hardly "free" to turn this on for a manufacturer. Any Cobra in volume would have to come with a fair amount of "support", including a warranty and longer term support, ie, dealer network for repairs, etc. It wouldn't necessarily be legally required, but it would be logically required, and that's a huge expense. If I bought a turnkey car from Shelby or Superformance I'd expect a TON more than I get now.

I spoke with Lance a couple of years ago and he didn't seem to enthusiastic. His metric was pull rather than push. That is, he wasn't going to build cars on speculation but would gauge interest by "if you were to build it I'd be interested". So far I don't see any action, so I assume interest was minimal. Instead he was going to expand the interior fit and finish choices so you could get brown leather dashes and digital gauges and a radio (all for extra and special order) but he said that's what the younger crowd wanted and let's face it, Cobras are going nowhere, let alone staying the same, unless some young blood comes into the hobby.
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Old 01-19-2021, 05:39 PM
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Polio, moon landing, Hubble, Interstate highways, the DARPA designed internet and the list goes on. I know its popular to tear down but thinking counts.
Oh, love reading back old topics.

The things you mention were definitely brought to us by Uncle Sam. The difference between all of these examples and the typical Gummint Help is this:

All of them are technologically so far advanced that they are above the capabilities of all five-hundread-and-some members of Congress. So having something that they completely don't understand they believe their staff and vote for it but don't have any understanding why. Those projects were successful.

Obamacare - they all thought they had a better idea and meddled until what we got was from a committee of 500+.
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Old 01-19-2021, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
I think the regulation has been around for a while, but so far none of the majors has signed up for volume production of Cobra replicas. The biggest problem in the Cobra space is a compliant engine. In the US the only one so far is a Chevy LS3. Ford hasn't submitted the Coyote for it (at least that was the case last time I checked) and we know that the overall Coyote penetration into the Cobra space is fairly limited.

Plus, it's hardly "free" to turn this on for a manufacturer. Any Cobra in volume would have to come with a fair amount of "support", including a warranty and longer term support, ie, dealer network for repairs, etc. It wouldn't necessarily be legally required, but it would be logically required, and that's a huge expense. If I bought a turnkey car from Shelby or Superformance I'd expect a TON more than I get now.

I spoke with Lance a couple of years ago and he didn't seem to enthusiastic. His metric was pull rather than push. That is, he wasn't going to build cars on speculation but would gauge interest by "if you were to build it I'd be interested". So far I don't see any action, so I assume interest was minimal. Instead he was going to expand the interior fit and finish choices so you could get brown leather dashes and digital gauges and a radio (all for extra and special order) but he said that's what the younger crowd wanted and let's face it, Cobras are going nowhere, let alone staying the same, unless some young blood comes into the hobby.
Ford does have a compliant engine - GODZILLA! 7.3l, 580 lbs., 430 HP, 475 lb/ft. torque. Lots of potential for modifications, should one be so inclined.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6007-73

High performance 'Megazilla' version with aluminum block is rumored. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/f...-crate-engine/
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Old 01-20-2021, 06:12 AM
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This rule or something like it will eventually become popular. The younger generation is much more environmentally responsible than we tend to be. I'd rather have a Cobra with modern emission capabilities but the cost of getting from here to there makes it impossible for ordinary people.
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