Misconceptions

[moore_rb]

The Scientist in me compels me to add my viewpoints to this discussion.

There is always lot's of back and forth; between replica owners and CSX owners, and between CSX/MKIV/SPF/K/FFR/ERA owners and the general public/car show spectators; and it all orbits around the term "real".

Real? Really? How many times has the word "real" been tossed out in this thread alone?

"Is it real?"

When this question is asked, the inquirer is actually asking: "Is your car an authentic, genuine 1962-1967 Shelby Cobra with an aluminum body, and a CSX2x or CSX3x serial number?"

- However, most people are not adroit enough about Cobras (nor the english language, for that matter) to frame their question in such non-ambiguous terms (This aspect of humanity's linguistic laziness, or ignorance, is why Lawyers thrive... )

Because let's face it: If they are asking, then what they are probably wondering about is:

A) Whether your car has a racing or other significant historical background to it, and

B) They are probably concurrently wondering if you happen to be one of those mythical "rich people", who live in some alternate dimension where spending 400k+ dollars on an automobile is as "normal" as running down to the local Home Depot to purchase a new lawn mower is, for them...

To the pragmatic question "Is your Shelby Cobra real?", there is only one valid binary response: Yes, or No.... It either has a CSX2x/CSX3x serial number, or it doesn't...

Or, it could have a COB or COX serial number and be rightly called an "AC Cobra"

It all boils down to questions of authenticity, and genuine-ness.

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents out there about the term "real" being used to differentiate something that ALL of our cars qualify as... They're all real.

Are they all Genuine? Sure - Some are Genuine and authentic 1960-something Shelby Cobras, a few are "asterisked" as Shelby "Continuation" cars, which still makes them "genuine" as Shelby's, but still not nearly as "authentic" as a CSX2x or CSX3x car; some cars are genuine COB/COX AC Cobras, some are genuine AC/Autokraft Mark IV's (I concur that the case could be made that the AC/Autokraft Mark IV is also a replica, since it exhibits the body contours that were designed into the "original" Cobras by Shelby, not by AC)

All the rest are genuine "Kit Cars" (Sorry to offend all you Aluminum Kirkham guys, and ditto to all you "Carrol Shelby endorsed" SPF guys- Your cars are kits, according to the US EPA and the legal system... )

The Blowhards will argue about Shelby endorsements, fiberglass versus aluminum bodies , round tube versus square tube, and all other manner of "Blah Blah Blah" in an attempt to alter your OBSERVATION of what their car REALLY is... It's still a kit.

Kit Car: - An incomplete, or partially assembled automotive chassis & body assembly, lacking a powertrain, and unable to leave the factory of manufacture under it's own power; and therefore not illustrative of the term: "Automobile"

Whether your Kit car left it's factory as a "complete rolling assembly", or whether it arrived at your house as boxes of parts- It was incomplete until someone installed a powertrain, wired it up, and make it go "vroom" for the first time.

Carrol Shelby's endorsement of your car does not make it any less of a kit - Not a single genuine, authentic Shelby Cobra was ever built in either Utah, or South Africa.

Ahhhh... and about that term: "Kit car" - We all know that in the actual world, many people at car shows lean on that term as a perjorative, as if your car were sitting on a plywood and 2x4 "chassis", and could come apart into a heap of scrap at any moment, and that you, as the owner of such obviously synthetic, Cobra wannabe garbage, are clearly a 2nd-rate Poser.

I refuse to descend into discussions born out of hubristic class-segregation and who's better than whom, based on the cars that they own

Or, maybe they toss it about as if your car is a "counterfeit" Shelby Cobra (a viewpoint not legally shared by the US Patent and Trademark Office, since the matter was legally discussed, and legally settled, in 2010; and Shelby, unfortunately, lost) - See the excerpt of the legal ruling in the posts above.

When people ask me "Is it a kit?" My canned response is "It's a Classic Roadsters car, yes" and if they are interested, I then take the opportunity to explain the dimensional differences, the chassis engineering differences, and why the deeper foot-wells, and the lower cost of ownership, appeal to me, etc...

So, you can have your "reality" (as defined by Shelby, and the US legal system) - But only as long as you respect my right to exist in my reality, where I enjoy my fake, fiberglass, 2nd rate, middle class, wannabe poser car, in peace...

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

To the pragmatic question "Is your Shelby Cobra real?", there is only one valid binary response: Yes, or No.... It either has a CSX2x/CSX3x serial number, or it doesn't...

A year ago I would totally agree. But that logic was just recently messed up with the announcement of the "new" CSX3x cars coming out from DenBeste and Kirkham effforts. It just adds to the ever-rolling controversial debate.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

The Scientist in me compels me to add my viewpoints to this discussion.

There is always lot's of back and forth; between replica owners and CSX owners, and between CSX/MKIV/SPF/K/FFR/ERA owners and the general public/car show spectators; and it all orbits around the term "real".

Real? Really? How many times has the word "real" been tossed out in this thread alone?

"Is it real?"

When this question is asked, the inquirer is actually asking: "Is your car an authentic, genuine 1962-1967 Shelby Cobra with an aluminum body, and a CSX2x or CSX3x serial number?"

- However, most people are not adroit enough about Cobras (nor the english language, for that matter) to frame their question in such non-ambiguous terms (This aspect of humanity's linguistic laziness, or ignorance, is why Lawyers thrive... )

Because let's face it: If they are asking, then what they are probably wondering about is:

A) Whether your car has a racing or other significant historical background to it, and

B) They are probably concurrently wondering if you happen to be one of those mythical "rich people", who live in some alternate dimension where spending 400k+ dollars on an automobile is as "normal" as running down to the local Home Depot to purchase a new lawn mower is, for them...

To the pragmatic question "Is your Shelby Cobra real?", there is only one valid binary response: Yes, or No.... It either has a CSX2x/CSX3x serial number, or it doesn't...

Or, it could have a COB or COX serial number and be rightly called an "AC Cobra"

It all boils down to questions of authenticity, and genuine-ness.

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents out there about the term "real" being used to differentiate something that ALL of our cars qualify as... They're all real.

Are they all Genuine? Sure - Some are Genuine and authentic 1960-something Shelby Cobras, a few are "asterisked" as Shelby "Continuation" cars, which still makes them "genuine" as Shelby's, but still not nearly as "authentic" as a CSX2x or CSX3x car; some cars are genuine COB/COX AC Cobras, some are genuine AC/Autokraft Mark IV's (I concur that the case could be made that the AC/Autokraft Mark IV is also a replica, since it exhibits the body contours that were designed into the "original" Cobras by Shelby, not by AC)

All the rest are genuine "Kit Cars" (Sorry to offend all you Aluminum Kirkham guys, and ditto to all you "Carrol Shelby endorsed" SPF guys- Your cars are kits, according to the US EPA and the legal system... )

The Blowhards will argue about Shelby endorsements, fiberglass versus aluminum bodies , round tube versus square tube, and all other manner of "Blah Blah Blah" in an attempt to alter your OBSERVATION of what their car REALLY is... It's still a kit.

Kit Car: - An incomplete, or partially assembled automotive chassis & body assembly, lacking a powertrain, and unable to leave the factory of manufacture under it's own power; and therefore not illustrative of the term: "Automobile"

Whether your Kit car left it's factory as a "complete rolling assembly", or whether it arrived at your house as boxes of parts- It was incomplete until someone installed a powertrain, wired it up, and make it go "vroom" for the first time.

Carrol Shelby's endorsement of your car does not make it any less of a kit - Not a single genuine, authentic Shelby Cobra was ever built in either Utah, or South Africa.

Ahhhh... and about that term: "Kit car" - We all know that in the actual world, many people at car shows lean on that term as a perjorative, as if your car were sitting on a plywood and 2x4 "chassis", and could come apart into a heap of scrap at any moment, and that you, as the owner of such obviously synthetic, Cobra wannabe garbage, are clearly a 2nd-rate Poser.

I refuse to descend into discussions born out of hubristic class-segregation and who's better than whom, based on the cars that they own

Or, maybe they toss it about as if your car is a "counterfeit" Shelby Cobra (a viewpoint not legally shared by the US Patent and Trademark Office, since the matter was legally discussed, and legally settled, in 2010; and Shelby, unfortunately, lost) - See the excerpt of the legal ruling in the posts above.

When people ask me "Is it a kit?" My canned response is "It's a Classic Roadsters car, yes" and if they are interested, I then take the opportunity to explain the dimensional differences, the chassis engineering differences, and why the deeper foot-wells, and the lower cost of ownership, appeal to me, etc...

So, you can have your "reality" (as defined by Shelby, and the US legal system) - But only as long as you respect my right to exist in my reality, where I enjoy my fake, fiberglass, 2nd rate, middle class, wannabe poser car, in peace...

Actually Shelby only lost the trade dress issue and won on the trade mark issues.

"Authentic" isn't limited to the original series. Depends what group you are talking about and discussing. You have authentic original Shelby Cobras and you have authentic continuation Shelby Cobras. Not hard to understand.

You have authentic original Ford GTs (GT40s). You have authentic '05/06 Ford GTs. You have authentic '69/70 Boss 302 Mustangs. You have authentic '012/'013 Boss 302 Mustangs.

Easy to understand (or so I thought).

Again the "kit" issue and the "replica" issue is a red herring to me and irrelevant to my analysis as to the Continuation Shelby Cobras which is a very simple analysis.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You have authentic original Ford GTs (GT40s). You have authentic '05/06 Ford GTs. You have authentic '69/70 Boss 302 Mustangs. You have authentic '012/'013 Boss 302 Mustangs.

Again the "kit" issue and the "replica" issue is a red herring to me and irrelevant to my analysis as to the Continuation Shelby Cobras which is a very simple analysis.

You can call it a red herring. I call it a KEY differentiating and critical point.

Of the cars you own, there's only one that is/was not legally sold in the US as a completed car (aka KIT car) and the only one that attempts to replicate or clone (see Dolly The Sheep) an original. The Shelby Cobra Replica.

As you stated, there's no argument that it's a true replica. No argument. Ned Scudder, the SAAC Cobra Registrar, and one of the leading experts on the 1960's Shelby Cobras, said your car is a REPLICA. The others are not kits nor replicas.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You can call it a red herring. I call it a KEY differentiating and critical point.

Of the cars you own, there's only one that is/was not legally sold in the US as a completed car (aka KIT car) and the only one that attempts to replicate or clone (see Dolly The Sheep) an original. The Shelby Cobra Replica.

As you stated, there's no argument that it's a true replica. No argument. Ned Scudder, the SAAC Cobra Registrar, and one of the leading experts on the 1960's Shelby Cobras, said your car is a REPLICA. The others are not kits nor replicas.

Uh, Okaaay. That's your analysis. Your entitled to think whatever you want. Not trying to change your mind or convince you.

No argument on the replica issue. It must replicate the original if it is going to be a Shelby Cobra Continuation series Cobra. By its very nature.

No argument on the "kit" issue technically since they were sold in kit form. Not sure if they still are.

Doesn't change the bottom line for me which is the crucial issue for me.

While the FGT isn't replicating the original per say it is a car which follows its form. It is a genuine true Ford GT just as the original series Ford GT. Same with the Boss. Only difference with the Shelby is that it clones or near exactly replicates the original again to be a continuation of the original car. Irrelevant to me as to the essence of what the car is. Same as to "kit". Again the original cars would be considered "kits" today if being produced as they were back then. No different than the SPF.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Uh, Okaaay. That's your analysis. Your entitled to think whatever you want. Not trying to change your mind or convince you.

No argument on the replica issue. It must replicate the original if it is going to be a Shelby Cobra Continuation series Cobra. By its very nature.

No argument on the "kit" issue technically since they were sold in kit form. Not sure if they still are.

Doesn't change the bottom line for me which is the crucial issue for me.

While the FGT isn't replicating the original per say it is a car which follows its form. It is a genuine true Ford GT just as the original series Ford GT. Same with the Boss. Only difference with the Shelby is that it clones or near exactly replicates the original again to be a continuation of the original car. Irrelevant to me as to the essence of what the car is. Same as to "kit". Again the original cars would be considered "kits" today if being produced as they were back then. No different than the SPF.

Uh, Okaaay. That's your analysis. Your entitled to think whatever you want. Not trying to change your mind or convince you.

However, I'm not a Shelby historian, but I believe the original 1960's Cobras could be purchased from a dealer, 100% complete, with a warranty and driven off the dealer's car lot, with title, registration and tags forthcoming in the mail.

That's not the case for the modern Shelby replica. Either you hire a private shop or you do the work yourself to complete the rest of the car post sale. And the Shelby Cobra replica cannot be titled and registered in CA without one of 500 exemptions each year because the car doesn't meet current safety and emissions requirements for 2015. That wasn't the case for the 1960's era Shelby Cobras.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

"Authentic" isn't limited to the original series. Depends what group you are talking about and discussing. You have authentic original Shelby Cobras and you have authentic continuation Shelby Cobras. Not hard to understand.

So considering your own assessments, taken in aggregate:

1: Agreeing that your continuation car is a replica, and now
2: Assessing your continuation car to be authentic

By collaboration of your own arguments, you thereby own an "authentic replica"... Exactly like every Factory Five owner on this forum....

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You have authentic original Ford GTs (GT40s). You have authentic '05/06 Ford GTs. You have authentic '69/70 Boss 302 Mustangs. You have authentic '012/'013 Boss 302 Mustangs.

Easy to understand (or so I thought).

Yes.... Probably easy for a Lawyer to understand; but I'm an Engineer, and a car-guy.

By the application of your same logic (That legal branding and trademarking is what defines the authenticity, or the "essence" of the automobile in question), you would imply that the Holden Commodore, which Bob Lutz brought over to the US and started selling in 2004, was in fact, an authentic Pontiac GTO...

Which it was NOT.... Not then. Not now. Not EVER.

Every "Authentic and genuine" Shelby Cobra was built and sold in the 1960's. You can debate that point all you like... but you can not replace canonical history, with legal interpretation.

All the legal posturing, all the condescending rolleyes smileys, and all the New Jersey dick-swinging, does not re-define basic realities.

and Reality Number One, is that your car is much a "Real 1" as every Factory Five car is...

Oh, and Here- Right back atcha....

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

So considering your own assessments, taken in aggregate:

1: Agreeing that your continuation car is a replica, and now
2: Assessing your continuation car to be authentic

By collaboration of your own arguments, you thereby own an "authentic replica"... Exactly like every Factory Five owner on this forum....



Yes.... Probably easy for a Lawyer to understand; but I'm an Engineer, and a car-guy.

By the application of your same logic (That legal branding and trademarking is what defines the authenticity, or the "essence" of the automobile in question), you would imply that the Holden Commodore, which Bob Lutz brought over to the US and started selling in 2004, was in fact, an authentic Pontiac GTO...

Which it was NOT.... Not then. Not now. Not EVER.

Every "Authentic and genuine" Shelby Cobra was built and sold in the 1960's. You can debate that point all you like... but you can not replace canonical history, with legal interpretation.

All the legal posturing, all the condescending rolleyes smileys, and all the New Jersey dick-swinging, does not re-define basic realities.

and Reality Number One, is that your car is much a "Real 1" as every Factory Five car is...

Oh, and Here- Right back atcha....

Damn! A new kid in the playground! This is going to get good!
You can bet your last spinner that REALJUAN is typing his response as we sleep.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by jhv48

You can bet your last spinner that REALJUAN is typing his response as we sleep.

Without question... After only reading his responses to these two threads today, I can gather (with a measurable degree of certainty) that he is also a "last word" kind of guy.

Too bad I will probably miss his response - He's already on my ignore list (10 years dealing with similar egos on digitalcorvettes.com trained me to use the ignore feature to its fullest capability)

So, hopefully his reply/retort will at least provide entertainment for everyone else.