Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[LMH]

Originally Posted by ASO544

But isn't the process the same it was in the 1960s ?

AC LTD sends over body and chassis, SAI installed drivetrain, attached SA chassis plate and CSX # then sold car.

Now....

SPF sends over body and chassis, SAI installed drivetrain, attached SA chassis plate and CSX # then sold car.

Seems the same exact process other than those cars were titled by the year they were produced and the continuations are all titled as 65s I believe.

I do agree they are true "Shelby Cobras" ( especially the aluminum body ones) just as much as those built in the 60s but misleading to think or declare they are real 60 Shelby Cobras... They are really 90s, 2000s, etc....Shelby Cobras but we all know why they are registered as 65s

My $.02s

AC Cars Ltd built complete cars less engine and transmission, ( in general terms) not bodies/chassis. Shipping is by weight/distance. No reason to send drivetrain assemblies to England only to have them returned to the USA once installed. Unneeded cost. CSX numbers were assigned during production in England, not at SAI in California. ( "X" is export designation)

Bodies/chassis for late Shelby cars are supplied from KMS, not SPF as far as I know. SPF cars are officially recognized by current SAI as an official replica of a Cobra 427 or Cobra by contract agreement and are not suppliers to current SAI of anything, as far as I know. (Someone correct me on that if I'm mistaken.)
Larry

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by LMH

....

Bodies/chassis for late Shelby cars are supplied from KMS, not SPF as far as I know. SPF cars are officially recognized by current SAI as an official replica of a Cobra 427 or Cobra by contract agreement and are not suppliers to current SAI of anything, as far as I know. (Someone correct me on that if I'm mistaken.)
Larry

KMS supplies aluminum bodied cars to SAI (originally they supplied just the frame and body, now it seems KMS supplies complete rollers to SAI and at least some of them have billet aluminum suspensions too). KMS is not the only supplier of aluminum bodied cars to SAI. CSX1000 series have been sourced from 2 or maybe even 3 suppliers in England. Early aluminum bodies were also sourced from Kimmons.

Fiberglass cars from SAI were originally built in house, and later supplied as rollers from both Mexico and South Africa. Now they are only sourced from South Africa from the parent company that also makes SPF, but the cars sourced from South Africa are to Shelby specifications (like round tube frames versus square tube frames of the SPF).

[1ntCobra]

I was just looking around and found a Cobra coffee mug that I got at Shelby in Vegas years ago. It says "OWN THE REAL THING". Note: the capitalization of letters in that quote is as found on the mug and I am not trying to shout. Hmm, Shelby American is definitely stating that their newfangled Shelby Cobras (continuation, replica or however you like describe them) are REAL Shelby Cobras.

Of course I got that coffee mug at the old original Shelby location in Vegas near the racetrack, not the new less original location closer to the casinos. I am pretty sure that everyone here will agree that my coffee mug bought at the old location is better than any replica mug purchased from the gift shop at the new location regardless of the materials or suppliers used to make any of the newer replica mugs, but that is getting off track a bit.

You know if I went to a car show and my dad asked me if a car he is pointing at is a "real" cobra, I would probably say "no" if that car was not an original cobra from the 1960s. I might also say it is not a "real" cobra because he is probably pointing at a Miata or a Corvette anyway.

Yet my coffee mug, a great source of wisdom and authority from Shelby himself says that his newfangled cobras are "REAL" too. Perhaps this is just a matter of capitalization? Maybe the cars from the 1960s are "real" Shelby Cobras, but the continuations are "REAL" Shelby Cobras. Hmm, no, it cannot be that simple.

So I am going to have to conclude that continuation cobras are both "real" and "not real" at the same time. It is a paradox. A great mystery of the universe.

I also conclude that Joe's Garage, Evan, Thor and friends are all equally right in their thoughts. Further they are all cuddly and lovable and yet extremely annoying at the same time. On no is that another paradox? I just hope that these paradoxes don't cause the universe to start to unravel.

[1ntCobra]

Another thought just occurred to me on while I was on this thread, but I hope you don't mind that it is sort of getting off track because it does not have anything to do with watches.

A few years ago when my son lost a tooth, I put his tooth under my pillow and surprisingly I found a note and nickle from the tooth fairy saying: "HA, you can't fool me! That is not your tooth! But I am going to leave you this nickle to put in your cobra fund anyway, but it is under two conditions: 1) use the nickle for your cobra fund (not to try to pay off your divorce or some other silly thing) and 2) when you eventually get your cobra, do not paint it beige."

[Joe's Garage]

Geeze, I step out for a minute and someone presses the play button for Bojangles.

It should be clear by now that Evan lives vicariously through what is printed in the registry and a distorted sense of self-worth derived from the pages within. He doesn't own a Shelby replica, the Shelby replica owns him. He refuses to say "Shelby Cobra replica" because that would destroy the image he has of himself, the one he must uphold in the public's view, remember Evan is the owner of a REAL 1. Evan frequently refers to originals and continuations together, in his mind they are in the same category with equal prominence. In his own words "the wheat", and of course quick to tell everyone else they own "the chaff".

What a house of cards.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Well, SAAC can change the Registry if they choose, don't really care ...

Really? If you want a real hoot read temper tantrum #27, Evan tells the SAAC National Director (aka Ron, CC moderator "computerworks") how he should conduct himself here on CC as well as with SAAC matters pertaining to the registry.

Aluminum Body Shelby Continuation rollers $160,000.00 (post #54)

Now, does this sound like a man who doesn't really care what SAAC does with the registry? Hardly, the SAAC Registry is Evan’s lifeblood.

This is how I envision encounters with Evan on the street would go down, and have many times -

"hey, is that what I think it is?"
"You bet, a real one, a genuine Shelby Cobra, the real McCoy".
I bet the gold President's Rolex is in full view to support the charade.

The pedestrian walks away tickled pink he/she just saw an original ‘60s Shelby Cobra.

It's unfortunate, the hobby needs good ambassadors, not narcissistic mouthpieces making it a measure of stature and wealth. Note original cobra owners who are in a far better position to do so don't. The irony in all of this is that if the SAAC does decide to go back to covering the historical Shelby's only, it's probably because of Evan being such a prolific actor at misrepresenting the registry, the SAAC feels compelled to put an end to it.

Carry on Evan, you are too far gone to be saved.

[Xack]

Real1, I think I know what the underlying issue might be. Do you need to pull your seat forward in your "Cobra"? Do you need to tilt your head back to see over the dash?

[Calicoco]

Nice Tag Monaco... I have a Tag Carrera Chrono, and have wanted to add a Monaco. I grew up on my Grandfather's farm and about 10 yrs ago he decided to auction it all off. I asked for two items... My baling hook and a 1955 JD peddle tractor. Peddle tractor is all original except for the wheels. They needed replaced after 2 generations of kids wore them out.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

It doesn't matter what Evan says. The market price of the cars define what the cognizenty already know. Real Cobras sell for somewhere north of $700k. Aluminum continuation cars sell for about $19-$20k more than Kirkhams they're built on. There, isn't that the elephant in the room? People will pay a little more for a Kirkham if it came from Shelby and has a CSX number. Doesn't make them original cars, just a little more desirable.

And the BJ auction in Vegas is confirming that. I'll update my summary tomorrow as the last car crosses the block tonight.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by LMH

AC Cars Ltd built complete cars less engine and transmission, ( in general terms) not bodies/chassis. Shipping is by weight/distance. No reason to send drivetrain assemblies to England only to have them returned to the USA once installed. Unneeded cost. CSX numbers were assigned during production in England, not at SAI in California. ( "X" is export designation)

Bodies/chassis for late Shelby cars are supplied from KMS, not SPF as far as I know. SPF cars are officially recognized by current SAI as an official replica of a Cobra 427 or Cobra by contract agreement and are not suppliers to current SAI of anything, as far as I know. (Someone correct me on that if I'm mistaken.)
Larry

Someone did, but I would have thought that someone professing to be "an expert" would have known this fact.

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

KMS supplies aluminum bodied cars to SAI (originally they supplied just the frame and body, now it seems KMS supplies complete rollers to SAI and at least some of them have billet aluminum suspensions too). KMS is not the only supplier of aluminum bodied cars to SAI. CSX1000 series have been sourced from 2 or maybe even 3 suppliers in England. Early aluminum bodies were also sourced from Kimmons.

Fiberglass cars from SAI were originally built in house, and later supplied as rollers from both Mexico and South Africa. Now they are only sourced from South Africa from the parent company that also makes SPF, but the cars sourced from South Africa are to Shelby specifications (like round tube frames versus square tube frames of the SPF).

The Mexico link is really HST International whose offices were in San Diego and whose manufacturing facility was in Mexico.

The South African "parent" company is Hi-Tech Manufacturing, and they make lots of cars besides Cobras. And they did a few alloy cars along the way (notably, two of the alloy CSX9000 coupes [not the 50th anniversary editions] were built by hand at Hi-Tech. I almost bought one, and Lance said they could build another if asked.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Now, does this sound like a man who doesn't really care what SAAC does with the registry? Hardly, the SAAC Registry is Evan’s lifeblood.

I was going to note this last night about how ironic it was that he would dismiss SAAC so easily if and when the Shelby replicas are removed from the Registry. Yet, OTOH, when it supports his position, he's a big proponent of SAAC and the Registry.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Evan there aren't any half truths in what I say. You say that garbage to save face. I quote directly from a page in the Registry. Just the whole truth from me. You keep saying Registry this and Registry that but you quote nothing. And define nothing. You just say "See the Registry." That's just plain BS. I quote the Registry nearly verbatim. So quit telling everyone here your half truths.

Bottom line is that it's 30-50 years later, your Shelby is being reproduced with different parts by a different company. You own a genuine replica of a Shelby. Even the SAAC Cobra Registrar agrees as do many many others within SAAC.

I own a genuine replica of a Shelby? !!!! Holy cannoli! I thought I owned a Shelby? I'm so confused.

You speak in half truths because you aren't accurately stating what the Registry States.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Xack

Real1, I think I know what the underlying issue might be. Do you need to pull your seat forward in your "Cobra"? Do you need to tilt your head back to see over the dash?

Hey, you never answered by question. If Rolex's came in kits would they be real Rolexes?

Waiting.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Geeze, I step out for a minute and someone presses the play button for Bojangles.

It should be clear by now that Evan lives vicariously through what is printed in the registry and a distorted sense of self-worth derived from the pages within. He doesn't own a Shelby replica, the Shelby replica owns him. He refuses to say "Shelby Cobra replica" because that would destroy the image he has of himself, the one he must uphold in the public's view, remember Evan is the owner of a REAL 1. Evan frequently refers to originals and continuations together, in his mind they are in the same category with equal prominence. In his own words "the wheat", and of course quick to tell everyone else they own "the chaff".

What a house of cards.



Really? If you want a real hoot read temper tantrum #27, Evan tells the SAAC National Director (aka Ron, CC moderator "computerworks") how he should conduct himself here on CC as well as with SAAC matters pertaining to the registry.

Aluminum Body Shelby Continuation rollers $160,000.00 (post #54)

Now, does this sound like a man who doesn't really care what SAAC does with the registry? Hardly, the SAAC Registry is Evan’s lifeblood.

This is how I envision encounters with Evan on the street would go down, and have many times -

"hey, is that what I think it is?"
"You bet, a real one, a genuine Shelby Cobra, the real McCoy".
I bet the gold President's Rolex is in full view to support the charade.

The pedestrian walks away tickled pink he/she just saw an original ‘60s Shelby Cobra.

It's unfortunate, the hobby needs good ambassadors, not narcissistic mouthpieces making it a measure of stature and wealth. Note original cobra owners who are in a far better position to do so don't. The irony in all of this is that if the SAAC does decide to go back to covering the historical Shelby's only, it's probably because of Evan being such a prolific actor at misrepresenting the registry, the SAAC feels compelled to put an end to it.

Carry on Evan, you are too far gone to be saved.

I happen to be a very good ambassador of the hobby. Been involved in it for nearly 17 years. Made many friends in the hobby. I don't insult people personally or stoop to those levels to make my point. Apparently makes you feel better about yourself. When people discuss my car with me I am honest as to what it is and love to discuss it. It does draw crowds and people get more excited when the learn its a Shelby Continuation Cobra. Just my observations.

You like to take statements out of context which is a dishonest way of having discourse. You seem to think that your point is made by insulting and trying to belittle people who disagree. Doesn't phase me though. Stick and stones and all that.

The "Chaff" statement was made in the context of what is "better" to me in a thread discussing the subject of what is "better. I stated what is "better" to me and what fits my criteria. If you want a Shelby Cobra and that's your criteria the rest is chaff obviously as to that criteria. If you want a FFR for various reasons/criteria or a SPF for various reasons/criteria or a Kirkham and only that will fit your criteria the rest is chaff as to that criteria. I stated my position and what I meant but you seem to keep trying to smear me with using it out of context. Carry on.

I'm not narcissistic at all. You obviously don't own a dictionary. I just take pride in what I own and don't intend to denigrate it to make friends here if that's the requirement. Have plenty of friends already thanks.

As to my President's Rolex I haven't worn it in years. Still sitting in a box. Special occasions really.

You seem like a very envious individual suffering from sour grapes.

My efforts are just to keep the record straight from envious detractors such as you. In your case "nasty" envious detractor.

I like post #54. Factual and well stated. No one can change the facts. Not Ron, not Ned or anyone else for that matter. Not even the Registry should they start saying something different which doesn't comport with reality.

The 40th Edition Registry got it right. Rod Knock you keep misstating what it says. Read pages 707-708; Please see pages 27 & 30.

I do agree with the Registry and believe they got the analysis correct. If they want to change it and take a 180 that's up to them. Would I be disappointed? Sure. But in the end wouldn't care. I have a Shelby Cobra (current production Shelby Cobra) which replicates the original series cars but in the end "that there" is a Shelby Cobra out in my garage and that's the reality of it.

I think I'll take CSX 4206 for spin now. Nice afternoon.

Cheers.

P.S. Still waiting for pics of the chassis sitting on the floor.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I own a genuine replica of a Shelby? !!!! Holy cannoli! I thought I owned a Shelby? I'm so confused.

You speak in half truths because you aren't accurately stating what the Registry States.

I quoted the Registry on the previous page. The registry uses terms like "true replica" and "Cobra-like" for any Cobra not produced in the 1960's. So I like those terms and will use them when your car is referenced. Yes, and genuine replica too, since your car is a replica and replicas cannot be genuine.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Calicoco

Nice Tag Monaco... I have a Tag Carrera Chrono, and have wanted to add a Monaco. I grew up on my Grandfather's farm and about 10 yrs ago he decided to auction it all off. I asked for two items... My baling hook and a 1955 JD peddle tractor. Peddle tractor is all original except for the wheels. They needed replaced after 2 generations of kids wore them out.

Heuer...but yes, thanks. Love Carrera's...have a Grand Carrera Chrono. (just a little bigger for my wrist), but would really like to find an older original just for the collection.

Peddle tractors...oh hell yes. There's a restaurant over in Kettleman City off I-5 that has one of the best collections I've seen...some are left in their original dirty state, which is cool too.

[Jamo]

Evan..."taking [it] for a spin"...? When the hell you gonna learn how to drive it? :P

BTW folks...there's been some good discussions but I still find that you are all still taking subtle (some not so subtle) digs at each other...sometimes simply being dismissive, sometimes just being b!tchy.

Please don't do that...pretty please. There, I asked nicely...so that part is over.

Thank you for your expected cooperation.

[Paul F]

My Dearest Evan,

It is with warm regards that I continue this intelligent discussion about cars made to look like the 1960s car called Cobra.

Yours is a replica. It is not a real one.

With best wishes to your and your family,
Paul f

[Jamo]

LMFAO...ok, that was nice. Smartass.

[Paul F]

edit - deleted for continuity

[jhv48]

I look forward to another 16 pages of (as Seinfeld once said) "It's a show about nothing! Absolutely nothing!"