Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

Question: Does SAI have the rights to the name "Cobra"? I know Ford owns it and in the judges ruling posted here, he never refers to the current cars as "Cobra"(s).
Larry

Shelby American has the rights under agreement with Ford. The "ruling" as you refer to didn't deal with the trade mark issue. That was a different decision. The ruling only a small part of which was posted ruled in essence there was no distinctiveness in shape that was preserved or related back to Shelby since others began copying the shape and did so for such a long time it was not in the public domain and not worthy of protection any longer. Had Shelby acted years ago when the replica industry started he would have won the trade dress issue.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Shelby American has the rights under agreement with Ford. The "ruling" as you refer to didn't deal with the trade mark issue. That was a different decision. The ruling only a small part of which was posted ruled in essence there was no distinctiveness in shape that was preserved or related back to Shelby since others began copying the shape and did so for such a long time it was not in the public domain and not worthy of protection any longer. Had Shelby acted years ago when the replica industry started he would have won the trade dress issue.

Thanks!
Larry

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Shelby American has the rights under agreement with Ford. The "ruling" as you refer to didn't deal with the trade mark issue. That was a different decision. The ruling only a small part of which was posted ruled in essence there was no distinctiveness in shape that was preserved or related back to Shelby since others began copying the shape and did so for such a long time it was not in the public domain and not worthy of protection any longer. Had Shelby acted years ago when the replica industry started he would have won the trade dress issue.

Originally Posted by LMH

Thanks!
Larry

Larry, do not get sucked into Evan's misleading spin, little of what he says actually culminates into a factual interpretation of Shelby or his cars.

Case in point, although Evan has summarized the trade dress issue reasonably well, he closes with a totally ridiculous assumption -

Had Shelby acted years ago when the replica industry started he would have won the trade dress issue.

The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby. If AC Cars Ltd. got wind that Shelby was bringing a law suit against replica builders on the shape of the 427 (back then), a simple FAX from across the pond would have squashed Shelby and his bumbling legal team who thought they had sole rights to the cobra shape. Who knows what AC Cars Ltd. would have done back then, but when Shelby brought the case to court some 40 years later, they probably knew it was a no-win and just let the court dispense with Shelby and his frivolous suit accordingly.

[REAL 1]

Except for the fact that Shelby owned the rights to the Cobra name and produced Shelby Cobras. Any trade dress action would not have been aimed at AC who was allowed to build AC Cobras under license and permission of SAI but would have been directed to stop third parties.

Yes, I am making assumptions since it never actually occurred but I believe my assumptions are valid. I do believe SAI would have been able to win against third parties.

Not saying I own a real Shelby Cobra or anything but just addressing the trade dress issue as opposed to the trade mark issue.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Not saying I own a real Shelby Cobra or anything but just addressing the trade dress issue as opposed to the trade mark issue.

Am I understanding this statement correctly? Are you admitting to the fact that you don't own a real Shelby Cobra? If so, then welcome back to sanity.

And change your license plate while you're at it.

[jhv48]

I had some time to do a little research.

Did you know that there are at least 37 States (possibly more, I just lost interest) that define (for vehicle registration purposes) what a "kit car" is?

And, guess what, every one of us (that doesn't own an original 60's era cobra) own kit cars. Go figure!

Also, anyone want to try and guess how many times Shelby Continuation Kit Cars have been featured in "Kit Car", "Complete Kit Car", "Kit Car Builder" or similar kit car magazines? I'll give you a hint, more than three times.

So, there you have it. The Government and "Kit Car Magazine" have spoken.

I thought of asking the Pope what he thought about the issue but he was too busy talking about the refugees, global warming, the environment and helping the poor to give us the church's opinion. Maybe next time I'm in Rome I'll try again.

Still won't satisfy REELKITCAR1!

Wait for it!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by jhv48

I had some time to do a little research.

Did you know that there are at least 37 States (possibly more, I just lost interest) that define (for vehicle registration purposes) what a "kit car" is?

And, guess what, every one of us (that doesn't own an original 60's era cobra) own kit cars. Go figure!

Also, anyone want to try and guess how many times Shelby Continuation Kit Cars have been featured in "Kit Car", "Complete Kit Car", "Kit Car Builder" or similar kit car magazines? I'll give you a hint, more than three times.

So, there you have it. The Government and "Kit Car Magazine" have spoken.

I thought of asking the Pope what he thought about the issue but he was too busy talking about the refugees, global warming, the environment and helping the poor to give us the church's opinion. Maybe next time I'm in Rome I'll try again.

Still won't satisfy REELKITCAR1!

Wait for it!

What is the definition used by the 37 states?

I have no problem with "Kit Car". Yes, I get it. Under todays regulations and governmental controls with safety standards, emissions which did not exist back in '62-'68 non of these cars whether Shelby Cobras or FFR can be sold as finished cars legally without having to comply with the bevy of safety and emissions regulations.

If SAI were still building and selling Cobras today and had continued non stop for the past 50 years using the same design, engines and materials without changing a thing they would not be allowed to do so. If the car was to say as it was the car would have to be sold in the same manner as the Continuations. So they would be "kits" today. Would they not?

But again, you continue to totally miss the point and the argument. Not concerned nor do I care about the term "Kit". I don't care nor am I concerned about the term "replica" They are red herrings to me. Maybe not you but that's fine.

What's important to me is that it is a Shelby Cobra. Yes, of course it's not an "original" but factually, legally and as recognized by the "World Registry of Cobras and GT40s" a genuine Shelby Cobra. That's not derogatory towards any other brand its just a statement of undeniable fact. Some here unfortunately see it as a derogation of what they own but that is their issue. Not mine, nor does it change the facts. Some here see it as a threat to what they own. There issue not mine.

If you are stuck on the dogma of the only real Cobras were the ones built in the 60s that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Its just that the facts, law and the World Registry say otherwise.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby. If AC Cars Ltd. got wind that Shelby was bringing a law suit against replica builders on the shape of the 427 (back then), a simple FAX from across the pond would have squashed Shelby and his bumbling legal team who thought they had sole rights to the cobra shape. Who knows what AC Cars Ltd. would have done back then, but when Shelby brought the case to court some 40 years later, they probably knew it was a no-win and just let the court dispense with Shelby and his frivolous suit accordingly.

OK, well, I guess I'll call BS on this. Are you in possession of any facts from AC that state this? Else it's just speculation and "gee it would have been nice if it had turned out that way". But it didn't. "Just the facts, m'am" [which Jack Webb never said], and any sentence with the word "probably" in it is not a fact.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

OK, well, I guess I'll call BS on this. Are you in possession of any facts from AC that state this? Else it's just speculation and "gee it would have been nice if it had turned out that way". But it didn't. "Just the facts, m'am" [which Jack Webb never said], and any sentence with the word "probably" in it is not a fact.

Part I
The 289 is all AC, the 427 was AC with some Ford input, it's all out there on the internet.

Production proved to be easy, since AC had already made most of the modifications needed for the small-block V8 when they installed the 2.6 L Ford Zephyr engine, including the extensive rework of the AC Ace's front end bodywork. The most important modification was the fitting of a stronger rear differential to handle the increased engine power. A Salisbury 4HU unit with inboard disc brakes to reduce unsprung weight was chosen instead of the old ENV unit. It was the same unit used on the Jaguar E-Type. On the production version, the inboard brakes were moved outboard to reduce cost. The only modification of the front end of the first Cobra from that of the AC Ace 2.6 was the steering box, which had to be moved outward to clear the wider V8 engine.

AC exported completed, painted and trimmed cars (less engine and gearbox) to Shelby who then finished the cars in his workshop in Los Angeles by installing the engine and gearbox and correcting any bodywork flaws caused by the car's passage by sea.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

OK, well, I guess I'll call BS on this. Are you in possession of any facts from AC that state this? Else it's just speculation and "gee it would have been nice if it had turned out that way". But it didn't. "Just the facts, m'am" [which Jack Webb never said], and any sentence with the word "probably" in it is not a fact.

Part II
The AC Cobra 427 is a convertible/cabriolet designed by John Tojeiro with 2 doors and a front mounted engine which transmits its power to the rear wheels.

After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways. Tojeiro continued to manufacture one-off racing specials in a wide variety until well in the 1960s and was even commissioned to build a special racing version of the Ace by AC in 1958, which finished second in its class at the Le Mans race that year. In later years Tojeiro switched to running a plastics business and it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history.

Education over.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Part II
The AC Cobra 427 is a convertible/cabriolet designed by John Tojeiro with 2 doors and a front mounted engine which transmits its power to the rear wheels.

After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways. Tojeiro continued to manufacture one-off racing specials in a wide variety until well in the 1960s and was even commissioned to build a special racing version of the Ace by AC in 1958, which finished second in its class at the Le Mans race that year. In later years Tojeiro switched to running a plastics business and it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history.

Education over.

You need to go back to school there Joe. Tojeiro didn't design the 427 body shape.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You need to go back to school there Joe. Tojeiro didn't design the 427 body shape.

Yeah, ok flunkee lol.

1966 AC Cobra 427 specifications, information, data, photos 51678

AC Shelby Cobra: the serpent icon - page 2 of 7

... NEXT

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Part II
The AC Cobra 427 is a convertible/cabriolet designed by John Tojeiro with 2 doors and a front mounted engine which transmits its power to the rear wheels.

After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways. Tojeiro continued to manufacture one-off racing specials in a wide variety until well in the 1960s and was even commissioned to build a special racing version of the Ace by AC in 1958, which finished second in its class at the Le Mans race that year. In later years Tojeiro switched to running a plastics business and it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history.

Education over.

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

Tony: Don't bother. He's always right and he'll just start calling you names.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

Ah, so the real problem is you're still chapped about that earlier thread, thanks for sharing Everyone knows the AC ACE was tweaked to get that first 289 out. That was John Tojeiro and his design. If you want to know who made revisions to that design over time they were several, that does not change the fact that John Tojeiro gets the credit for the design.

There is a reason why that 7 page article is called "AC Shelby Cobra, 1953-1963: starting with an Ace".

There is also a reason why they elaborated on Tojeiro's exit from AC and the timing/conditions of it -

"After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways ... it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history."

That reads pretty damn true to me. Then there is mrmustang's post #81 from above that is quite timely -

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Let's face facts, unless your car has a providence such as the following, it's a replica



Might I add, that you'll notice how it is invoiced as an "AC ACE" chassis with the CSX2032 chassis ID.

twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

If you (or anyone) still disagrees, that's fine but please post a source of information so that it can be reviewed. I was asked to do so and did. I have no problem admitting John Tojeiro might not be the right guy if that's the case, but you'll need to prove it to me with something a little more concrete than an off the cuff "it ain't so".