Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Shelby American has the rights under agreement with Ford. The "ruling" as you refer to didn't deal with the trade mark issue. That was a different decision. The ruling only a small part of which was posted ruled in essence there was no distinctiveness in shape that was preserved or related back to Shelby since others began copying the shape and did so for such a long time it was not in the public domain and not worthy of protection any longer. Had Shelby acted years ago when the replica industry started he would have won the trade dress issue.

Originally Posted by LMH

Thanks!
Larry

Larry, do not get sucked into Evan's misleading spin, little of what he says actually culminates into a factual interpretation of Shelby or his cars.

Case in point, although Evan has summarized the trade dress issue reasonably well, he closes with a totally ridiculous assumption -

Had Shelby acted years ago when the replica industry started he would have won the trade dress issue.

The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby. If AC Cars Ltd. got wind that Shelby was bringing a law suit against replica builders on the shape of the 427 (back then), a simple FAX from across the pond would have squashed Shelby and his bumbling legal team who thought they had sole rights to the cobra shape. Who knows what AC Cars Ltd. would have done back then, but when Shelby brought the case to court some 40 years later, they probably knew it was a no-win and just let the court dispense with Shelby and his frivolous suit accordingly.

[REAL 1]

Except for the fact that Shelby owned the rights to the Cobra name and produced Shelby Cobras. Any trade dress action would not have been aimed at AC who was allowed to build AC Cobras under license and permission of SAI but would have been directed to stop third parties.

Yes, I am making assumptions since it never actually occurred but I believe my assumptions are valid. I do believe SAI would have been able to win against third parties.

Not saying I own a real Shelby Cobra or anything but just addressing the trade dress issue as opposed to the trade mark issue.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Not saying I own a real Shelby Cobra or anything but just addressing the trade dress issue as opposed to the trade mark issue.

Am I understanding this statement correctly? Are you admitting to the fact that you don't own a real Shelby Cobra? If so, then welcome back to sanity.

And change your license plate while you're at it.

[jhv48]

I had some time to do a little research.

Did you know that there are at least 37 States (possibly more, I just lost interest) that define (for vehicle registration purposes) what a "kit car" is?

And, guess what, every one of us (that doesn't own an original 60's era cobra) own kit cars. Go figure!

Also, anyone want to try and guess how many times Shelby Continuation Kit Cars have been featured in "Kit Car", "Complete Kit Car", "Kit Car Builder" or similar kit car magazines? I'll give you a hint, more than three times.

So, there you have it. The Government and "Kit Car Magazine" have spoken.

I thought of asking the Pope what he thought about the issue but he was too busy talking about the refugees, global warming, the environment and helping the poor to give us the church's opinion. Maybe next time I'm in Rome I'll try again.

Still won't satisfy REELKITCAR1!

Wait for it!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by jhv48

I had some time to do a little research.

Did you know that there are at least 37 States (possibly more, I just lost interest) that define (for vehicle registration purposes) what a "kit car" is?

And, guess what, every one of us (that doesn't own an original 60's era cobra) own kit cars. Go figure!

Also, anyone want to try and guess how many times Shelby Continuation Kit Cars have been featured in "Kit Car", "Complete Kit Car", "Kit Car Builder" or similar kit car magazines? I'll give you a hint, more than three times.

So, there you have it. The Government and "Kit Car Magazine" have spoken.

I thought of asking the Pope what he thought about the issue but he was too busy talking about the refugees, global warming, the environment and helping the poor to give us the church's opinion. Maybe next time I'm in Rome I'll try again.

Still won't satisfy REELKITCAR1!

Wait for it!

What is the definition used by the 37 states?

I have no problem with "Kit Car". Yes, I get it. Under todays regulations and governmental controls with safety standards, emissions which did not exist back in '62-'68 non of these cars whether Shelby Cobras or FFR can be sold as finished cars legally without having to comply with the bevy of safety and emissions regulations.

If SAI were still building and selling Cobras today and had continued non stop for the past 50 years using the same design, engines and materials without changing a thing they would not be allowed to do so. If the car was to say as it was the car would have to be sold in the same manner as the Continuations. So they would be "kits" today. Would they not?

But again, you continue to totally miss the point and the argument. Not concerned nor do I care about the term "Kit". I don't care nor am I concerned about the term "replica" They are red herrings to me. Maybe not you but that's fine.

What's important to me is that it is a Shelby Cobra. Yes, of course it's not an "original" but factually, legally and as recognized by the "World Registry of Cobras and GT40s" a genuine Shelby Cobra. That's not derogatory towards any other brand its just a statement of undeniable fact. Some here unfortunately see it as a derogation of what they own but that is their issue. Not mine, nor does it change the facts. Some here see it as a threat to what they own. There issue not mine.

If you are stuck on the dogma of the only real Cobras were the ones built in the 60s that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Its just that the facts, law and the World Registry say otherwise.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby. If AC Cars Ltd. got wind that Shelby was bringing a law suit against replica builders on the shape of the 427 (back then), a simple FAX from across the pond would have squashed Shelby and his bumbling legal team who thought they had sole rights to the cobra shape. Who knows what AC Cars Ltd. would have done back then, but when Shelby brought the case to court some 40 years later, they probably knew it was a no-win and just let the court dispense with Shelby and his frivolous suit accordingly.

OK, well, I guess I'll call BS on this. Are you in possession of any facts from AC that state this? Else it's just speculation and "gee it would have been nice if it had turned out that way". But it didn't. "Just the facts, m'am" [which Jack Webb never said], and any sentence with the word "probably" in it is not a fact.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

OK, well, I guess I'll call BS on this. Are you in possession of any facts from AC that state this? Else it's just speculation and "gee it would have been nice if it had turned out that way". But it didn't. "Just the facts, m'am" [which Jack Webb never said], and any sentence with the word "probably" in it is not a fact.

Part I
The 289 is all AC, the 427 was AC with some Ford input, it's all out there on the internet.

Production proved to be easy, since AC had already made most of the modifications needed for the small-block V8 when they installed the 2.6 L Ford Zephyr engine, including the extensive rework of the AC Ace's front end bodywork. The most important modification was the fitting of a stronger rear differential to handle the increased engine power. A Salisbury 4HU unit with inboard disc brakes to reduce unsprung weight was chosen instead of the old ENV unit. It was the same unit used on the Jaguar E-Type. On the production version, the inboard brakes were moved outboard to reduce cost. The only modification of the front end of the first Cobra from that of the AC Ace 2.6 was the steering box, which had to be moved outward to clear the wider V8 engine.

AC exported completed, painted and trimmed cars (less engine and gearbox) to Shelby who then finished the cars in his workshop in Los Angeles by installing the engine and gearbox and correcting any bodywork flaws caused by the car's passage by sea.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

OK, well, I guess I'll call BS on this. Are you in possession of any facts from AC that state this? Else it's just speculation and "gee it would have been nice if it had turned out that way". But it didn't. "Just the facts, m'am" [which Jack Webb never said], and any sentence with the word "probably" in it is not a fact.

Part II
The AC Cobra 427 is a convertible/cabriolet designed by John Tojeiro with 2 doors and a front mounted engine which transmits its power to the rear wheels.

After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways. Tojeiro continued to manufacture one-off racing specials in a wide variety until well in the 1960s and was even commissioned to build a special racing version of the Ace by AC in 1958, which finished second in its class at the Le Mans race that year. In later years Tojeiro switched to running a plastics business and it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history.

Education over.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Part II
The AC Cobra 427 is a convertible/cabriolet designed by John Tojeiro with 2 doors and a front mounted engine which transmits its power to the rear wheels.

After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways. Tojeiro continued to manufacture one-off racing specials in a wide variety until well in the 1960s and was even commissioned to build a special racing version of the Ace by AC in 1958, which finished second in its class at the Le Mans race that year. In later years Tojeiro switched to running a plastics business and it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history.

Education over.

You need to go back to school there Joe. Tojeiro didn't design the 427 body shape.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You need to go back to school there Joe. Tojeiro didn't design the 427 body shape.

Yeah, ok flunkee lol.

1966 AC Cobra 427 specifications, information, data, photos 51678

AC Shelby Cobra: the serpent icon - page 2 of 7

... NEXT

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Yeah, ok flunkee lol.

1966 AC Cobra 427 specifications, information, data, photos 51678

AC Shelby Cobra: the serpent icon - page 2 of 7

... NEXT

You apparently rely on the internet way too much. The first article is inaccurate and wrong as to Tojeiro and the 427. The second article is a better article historically and does not say what you want it to say.

Calling others names doesn't help your cause.

Cheers

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Part II
The AC Cobra 427 is a convertible/cabriolet designed by John Tojeiro with 2 doors and a front mounted engine which transmits its power to the rear wheels.

After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways. Tojeiro continued to manufacture one-off racing specials in a wide variety until well in the 1960s and was even commissioned to build a special racing version of the Ace by AC in 1958, which finished second in its class at the Le Mans race that year. In later years Tojeiro switched to running a plastics business and it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history.

Education over.

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

Tony: Don't bother. He's always right and he'll just start calling you names.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

Ah, so the real problem is you're still chapped about that earlier thread, thanks for sharing Everyone knows the AC ACE was tweaked to get that first 289 out. That was John Tojeiro and his design. If you want to know who made revisions to that design over time they were several, that does not change the fact that John Tojeiro gets the credit for the design.

There is a reason why that 7 page article is called "AC Shelby Cobra, 1953-1963: starting with an Ace".

There is also a reason why they elaborated on Tojeiro's exit from AC and the timing/conditions of it -

"After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways ... it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history."

That reads pretty damn true to me. Then there is mrmustang's post #81 from above that is quite timely -

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Let's face facts, unless your car has a providence such as the following, it's a replica



Might I add, that you'll notice how it is invoiced as an "AC ACE" chassis with the CSX2032 chassis ID.

twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

If you (or anyone) still disagrees, that's fine but please post a source of information so that it can be reviewed. I was asked to do so and did. I have no problem admitting John Tojeiro might not be the right guy if that's the case, but you'll need to prove it to me with something a little more concrete than an off the cuff "it ain't so".

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Ah, so the real problem is you're still chapped about that earlier thread, thanks for sharing Everyone knows the AC ACE was tweaked to get that first 289 out. That was John Tojeiro and his design. If you want to know who made revisions to that design over time they were several, that does not change the fact that John Tojeiro gets the credit for the design.

There is a reason why that 7 page article is called "AC Shelby Cobra, 1953-1963: starting with an Ace".

There is also a reason why they elaborated on Tojeiro's exit from AC and the timing/conditions of it -

"After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways ... it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history."

That reads pretty damn true to me. Then there is mrmustang's post #81 from above that is quite timely -



twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

If you (or anyone) still disagrees, that's fine but please post a source of information so that it can be reviewed. I was asked to do so and did. I have no problem admitting John Tojeiro might not be the right guy if that's the case, but you'll need to prove it to me with something a little more concrete than an off the cuff "it ain't so".

The AC Ace chassis without Carroll Shelby and Phil Remington etc.. would remain nothing but a spindly little British chassis of little to mediocre historical note. Period. All major improvements that made the car a "Cobra" were Shelby American initiated /requested and then carried out by AC or done by SAI.

Further, Tojeiro was never part of AC to "exit AC". Cite you source on that one please.

Tojeiro is responsible for the Ace chassis design. True. He is responsible for the Barchetta shaped body work that covered his initial chassis work adopted by AC early on from which the Cobra eventually evolved. True. However, by the time the Cobra was coming on the scene Tojeiro was long gone and the body shape had already evolved to the more recognizable Cobra shape without Tojeiro input.

Oh, and my source of information is Trevor Legate "Cobra, The Real Thing" and Brian Laban, "AC Cobra, The Complete Story".

However, lets stay focused on your incorrect statement that started this.

Tojeiro, contrary to your statement previously regarding the 427 had nothing directly to do with the 427 body shape or chassis design beside the then indirect connection to the 289. Nothing.

Sounds like your statement was an "off the cuff" statement without basis. Please explain to us where you are correct if you maintain you are.



P.S. Tony doesn't own a Continuation Cobra any longer. Another "off the cuff" remark. Two for two.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

P.S. Tony doesn't own a Continuation Cobra any longer. Another "off the cuff" remark.

My wife hated it, wouldn't ride in it. Bought the GT but she doesn't want to go anywhere in it either (she did a few times, but I won't take it out where I can't stay with it so that means drives and/or car shows). I don't like to drive it in city traffic due to the huge blind spot, so I'm selling it.

But a Cobra could find its way back as a replacement. Since the car would be for me (I know she won't ride in it anyway) it's a contender and the Cobra is so much fun to drive. The next one will be a 289 car though. Manufacturer TBD.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...
P.S. Tony doesn't own a Continuation Cobra any longer. Another "off the cuff" remark. Two for two.

Tony has an outdated description on his posting info, would that be "misleading" ya think?
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby CSX4005LA, Roush 427IR

As for the rest, I knew if I cleared the dance floor you would show up so I could record the event.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MQsanriHsc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MQsanriHsc[/ame]

Just for you jhv48

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

(1) Not any more. SOld it three years ago to buy a Ford GT. Wife hated it.

(2) Yes, the design "sprung forth from the loins of AC Motors", but Carroll Shelby adopted the orphan baby and let it grow up. Without Carroll, the AC Ace would have been another page in failed British Sports Car history.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

(1) Not any more. SOld it three years ago to buy a Ford GT. Wife hated it.

(2) Yes, the design "sprung forth from the loins of AC Motors", but Carroll Shelby adopted the orphan baby and let it grow up. Without Carroll, the AC Ace would have been another page in failed British Sports Car history.

Number (2) is certainly shared by some but not all, I say we will never know. Tojeiro did a special racing version of the Ace for AC in '58 and finished 2nd in its' class at Le Mans. You say "failed British Sports Car history", maybe not so much, there are other examples including beating Shelby at Le Mans in '63 I think. No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine.

FWIW, my original statement -
The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby".

This started out as a trade dress discussion, the appearance/shape of the cobra. I guess design got thrown in with the links which is ok but not how this mini-battle started.

LMH thinks Alan Turner deserves credit for the cobra, how do you feel about that?

In late 1962 Alan Turner, AC's chief engineer completed a major design change of the car's front end to accommodate rack and pinion steering while still using transverse leaf spring suspension. The new car entered production in early 1963 and was designated Mark II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

I see Alan Turner as the front end guy yes, but giving all the cobra credit to him, I wouldn't. More to the original point, I don't see Alan being a big contributor to the cobra shape/appearance except for maybe fender flares (if he actually had a hand in that). But, you can give Alan Turner all the credit you want, it's still AC Cars Ltd.