Engine Option (Just For Discussion)

[Millsy]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

WHAT !?!?!?!

You're going to attempt owning a Ford AND a Chevy at the same time?

Didn't you ever watch Star Trek? Don't you know what happens when matter and anti-matter collide? The entire Universe could implode.

You sir, must have brass balls. I don't think there is a single Internet forum out there where you won't be loathed 50% of the time ... Except on the Mopar forums, where you are certain to be loathed 100% of the time...

Ha, being loathed 50% of the time sounds ok to me. In the real world im probably loathed 90% of the time so i think i will fit in fine here seeing how this thread took a turn for the worse. God i hope politics and religion are not discussed here, lol.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by Millsy

Ha, being loathed 50% of the time sounds ok to me. In the real world im probably loathed 90% of the time so i think i will fit in fine here seeing how this thread took a turn for the worse. God i hope politics and religion are not discussed here, lol.

No politics, no religion discussed here, Kind of a club rule, same as making jokes about disabled people. Just doesn't work here...

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by Millsy

God i hope politics and religion are not discussed here, lol.

All politicians suck by nature, and there is no God but Shelby....

Hope this clears things up for you

[wouter37]

I have a chevy 350 for me it is not important if it is a Ford or a Chevy. For me the most important is a classic look and a clean engine bay.

[blykins]

"Sounds like you are getting your numbers "Loch Ness" the engine builder, you may have a grainy picture but does not exist."



I have no clue what any of that means. Repost when you're sober.

[Bernica]

To me, it's "whatever lights your pipes!" and gets you what you want.
I am an FE guy, but try to be objective on other views and choices. Some are budget driven, some are loyalty driven and some just dare to be different. To each their own.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by blykins

"Sounds like you are getting your numbers "Loch Ness" the engine builder, you may have a grainy picture but does not exist."



I have no clue what any of that means. Repost when you're sober.

When sober , that will be a long wait. The clue is you are making h.p. numbers up!

[blykins]

Chevrolet advertises the Corvette engine to be 460 hp with 6.2L. The 5.0 in the mustang is 420 hp.

I am not making those numbers up, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which engine is more efficient at making horsepower.

And yes it is extrapolation, but it is reasonable extrapolation that all engine builders use. If the 5.0 added more displacement it would be head and shoulders above the Chevy engine.

I'm sorry, but your superior engine just isn't superior. Also, to add insult to injury, the 5.2 L Mustang engine makes over 520 hp.

[DanEC]

The current Mustang GT coyote is rated at 435 HP and the older Boss 302 coyote was rated at 444 HP. Ford modular motors make some serious HP and revs.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

Exactly...

When you equalize the displacement you'll see that the Ford would be almost 70 hp over the Chevy.

Now try and explain to me how superior the LS engine is.

I'm still waiting for you to point out Ford's equivalent performance engine platform (let alone Ford's superior one)-

If you want to call out the Coyote platform, then I won't argue, except to say: "Time will tell", and/or "I guess 18 years was a long enough head start for Ford to give GM"

You're entire argument has been "Pro engine builders like me understand things that imbeciles like you don't..." You're a custom engine builder who prefers Fords - I get that, and I also get that there are successful race teams out there running engines based on a whole myriad of design platforms.

But shops like Lingenfelter and MTI Motorsports were out there building 600HP NA LS engines (Using factory GM cranks and connecting rods) for a decade, while all Ford was doing was fighting to get out of honoring warranty claims against its crappy modular V8, Which the Mustang tuner crowd was out there blowing up left and right...

I consider the LS to be a superior engine platform simply because LS engines are proven to handle the abuse (even the excessive abuse dished out by 20-something, FastandFurious wannabe's) and they are capable of producing 100%+ VE without any significant degradation in engine longevity or durability. And they've been doing this since 1997 (nearly 20 years).

Ford does not have a modern engine platform that can match that track-record (unless you can point it out to me)

If HP/displacement is the governing factor on what makes a "superior" engine, then I guess the 4.6 Modular V8 is/was not only better than the LS, but is also better than the FE or the Windsor before it... right? If so, then why are there so many windowed 4.6 liter Fords sitting in junkyards, compared to so few LS1's... ?

Now, we could continue to volley this little yellow ball back and forth, but it would only serve to entertain everyone else on ClubCobra... You are unlikely to change my mind, because you lost me at "LS heads are based on Cleveland heads", and "LS heads will bolt directly onto a Windsor block" - neither of which is technically (nor historically) accurate...

Besides, we're talking about OHC versus pushrod engines here - If we want to level the field, then like you said earlier- we should compare apples to apples...

But it's been fun...

[blykins]

Well, you actually can bolt LS heads to a Windsor block. Do a search, guys do it.

Also, there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to engines. BBC's, BBF's and Clevelands all share the same design architecture. When Chevy decided to start with a clean slate, look at the design characteristics that they implemented: same bore spacing as a Ford, similar valve angles, valve sizes, port CSA, and exhaust layout. (Chevy switched from having the middle two exhaust pipes close to each other, to spacing it out like a Ford. They also changed to a Ford style oil pump, among other things.) There are only so many ways to design an engine, but Chevy copied a lot of Ford ideas on the LS. Actually, you can convert an LS to distributor ignition and guess what you use.......an MSD Ford 302 distributor.

As for superior engine designs, what are you basing your decision on? Horsepower? Surely not, because there are many naturally aspirated SBF's, Clevelands, BBF's, etc., than can easily match the horsepower and efficiency that an LS can. I'm not sure where the idea that the LS is such a brain child came from, because none of the engine builders I know just don't share that same idea.....??????

As far as Modular Fords go, the Mods have been out since 1996. A factory aluminum 4.6L DOHC block will take 1000 hp without batting an eyelash. They are bulletproof as far as I'm concerned. As for how many 4.6's I see windowed in the junkyards, to be honest, I've seen zero. The 5.4's are known for poor piston quench and poor spark plug design, but the 4.6's and 5.0's have been out for a very long time and are very proven.

I've quoted numbers, taken straight from the manufacturers' websites. I guess that's not enough argument that the Ford engines will make horsepower easier.

A 1.2 hp/ci engine (referring to that 6.2L LS) is not hard to duplicate. FE's are certainly not the epitome of big horsepower, but if I couldn't duplicate that with a Windsor or Cleveland, I'd give up engine building. Saying an engine has had durability or longevity since 1997 makes me laugh out loud.....because SBF's have been doing that since the late 60's.

Nice try, but no cigar sir. As far as I'm concerned, if your GM fact quotes are anything like your math, I'm unimpressed....LOL

[RodKnock]

Can we talk about resale value? Cobras with Chevy engines sell for more money, when you factor in the fact that Chevy engines are cheaper to build. So you lose less money.

And what about the "If Chevy had supplied Shelby an engine....we would have all be better off." Would we all be arguing about whether a Ford engine in the Cobra looked better and made more HP for more, or maybe less, money?

Come on Bernica, pick a side and stop being politician.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Can we talk about resale value? Cobras with Chevy engines sell for more money, when you factor in the fact that Chevy engines are cheaper to build. So you lose less money.

And what about the "If Chevy had supplied Shelby an engine....we would have all be better off." Would we all be arguing about whether a Ford engine in the Cobra looked better and made more HP for more, or maybe less, money?

Come on Bernica, pick a side and stop being politician.

Well said!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

Well said!

Well, we can say anything on the Internet and cannot be proven wrong, since there's no verifiable data to support what any of us say.

The only person who quoted something, anything, that was 100% correct is EZ$:

Originally Posted by EZ$

Been sitting here reading the thread, and debating if I wanted to respond. When I read the discussion of the 1.2 to 1.4 hp/ci being a .85% increase I just couldn't not respond. That difference is actually a 17% increase, .2 divided by 1.2 = .17 or 17%. Since I have no knowledge of the differences between GM & Ford engines, (don't care, long term Ford guy), I'll go away now.

We'll ignore the double negative.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Can we talk about resale value? Cobras with Chevy engines sell for more money, when you factor in the fact that Chevy engines are cheaper to build. So you lose less money.

.

That was an awesome post.


I don't even know how I got stuck in this honey-trap - I'm not even a "GM guy" necessarily- True, I have owned more GM powered vehicles through the years, but at this moment in time, I own 3 Fords, and ZERO GM vehicles.

I already stated above that I think the engine should match the application...

Now, if you will all excuse me, I'm going to go find a Cheetah replica forum so I can tell them all about the exciting new Cheetah build I'm doing, using a 400M I yanked out of a 71 Mercury Marquis... It should be a RIOT.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Can we talk about resale value? Cobras with Chevy engines sell for more money, when you factor in the fact that Chevy engines are cheaper to build. So you lose less money.

That was not my experience two years ago when I was in the market to buy. What I observed was that any engine other than a Ford consistently had a lower asking price and was often on the market much longer.

In retrospect I probably should have bought one of those dirt cheap (especially if it had an auto tranny), yanked the engine and transmission and sold it to someone with a bowtie fetish, then replaced it with something fresh. Ah, lost opportunities...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

That was not my experience two years ago when I was in the market to buy. What I observed was that any engine other than a Ford consistently had a lower asking price and was often on the market much longer.

In retrospect I probably should have bought one of those dirt cheap (especially if it had an auto tranny), yanked the engine and transmission and sold it to someone with a bowtie fetish, then replaced it with something fresh. Ah, lost opportunities...

I was stating Thor maine's usual position. I was writing that tongue firmly planted in cheek. Of course, it doesn't apply to every situation, there are exceptions, but most Cobras will sell more quickly and for more money with a Ford engine.

[Three Peaks]

Oh brother, another thread shot down the tubes before it really got started.

I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned budget in this conversation. Not everyone who has or wants a Cobra (or any hotrod for that matter) has enough cash to plunk down for the latest and greatest motor regardless of their lust for one. I'm quite sure many people who would love an FE 427, 428 or whatever but are taken back by the $25K (?) price tag, or the additional weight, or the reputation or hearsay of likely failure, etc....
Others may be in over their heads just plunking down $7-12K for a crate engine in a small block. Personally, I'm kind of a cheap skate but I also love to build engines so I built my own 393 stroker and I really like how it runs and particularly how it sounds with the sidepipes. I think I have around $3500 in the whole engine and it runs in the area of 515 hp- more than enough for me at the moment.

Sound is another impetus for some buyers, but unless someone is really engine savvy I'm betting 90% or more of hot rodders and cobra owners couldn't tell the difference between a small block and a big block from the sound alone.

Personally, a built small block in the 351 Windsor family fits the bill for me. Quick response, relatively inexpensive and reliable to build and maintain, fits the engine compartment fairly easily, sufficient grunt and sound to make most bystanders stop and watch as you go by if my results are any indication. What's not to like?

Bob

PS- I'm a Chevy guy and I like the LS line a lot. Much like the earlier GM small blocks, they are easy to upgrade, lots of parts available for hot rodders, lots of them to choose from , etc..... but this is only the second SBF I've built and I really have enjoyed the process and the engine has responded fairly easily to my ham handed wrenching techniques.. not that I'm going to threaten Brent's business any time soon!

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned budget in this conversation. Not everyone who has or wants a Cobra (or any hotrod for that matter) has enough cash to plunk down for the latest and greatest motor regardless of their lust for one. I'm quite sure many people who would love an FE 427, 428 or whatever but are taken back by the $25K (?) price tag, or the additional weight, or the reputation or hearsay of likely failure, etc....

Just to be clear... and fair... you cant have your cake and eat it too....

I'm willing to bet $25k FE build, is typically an all ALU build (block, heads, and intake). These DO weigh in at similar figures to your standard small block build.

That said for $25K you could probably build an all ALU SBF... then you'd have your weight advantage, but not your $$$ advantage.


My personal Engine choice would match my choice in kit.

Kirkham, Shelby: FE All ALU
ERA: FE, 428 or 390 stroker, may be even All Alu.
SPF, Hurricane, FFR, multitude of others: SBF
SPF, Backdraft: MOD motor. Maybe even electric (NO kidding!).

That all said - If my bonnet had a Scoop, I'd have an suitable intake that could be seen peeking through that gap
I LOVE that look!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Just to be clear... and fair... you cant have your cake and eat it too....

I'm willing to bet $25k FE build, is typically an all ALU build (block, heads, and intake). These DO weigh in at similar figures to your standard small block build.

That said for $25K you could probably build an all ALU SBF... then you'd have your weight advantage, but not your $$$ advantage.


My personal Engine choice would match my choice in kit.

Kirkham, Shelby: FE All ALU
ERA: FE, 428 or 390 stroker, may be even All Alu.
SPF, Hurricane, FFR, multitude of others: SBF
SPF, Backdraft: MOD motor. Maybe even electric (NO kidding!).

That all said - If my bonnet had a Scoop, I'd have an suitable intake that could be seen peeking through that gap
I LOVE that look!

I'm Cammer all the way. I love those engines.

I love the hypocrisy here. Folks are worried about the weight of the engine or other components of their Cobra, yet often carry around 25-50-75 lbs of extra weight around their mid-sections.