Engine Option (Just For Discussion)

[Shootnride]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

This is the thing that I find odd, SPF square frame not a chassis part is even close to an original, body probably fiberglass, thinks nothing of maybe having a 5 spd, but has to have an FE or it's just not real enough for him.

It's always amazing to me that some folks can turn any thread on this forum into an opportunity for personal attacks.

Ted

[Winchester67]

Have to admit, I, without exception, ALWAYS click on these threads. Despite the fact I am pretty sure the person that started it already knows what they think the answer is. The answer is with the owner. Cobras are actually fun to drive unlike a lot of classic muscle cars, and I have owned enough of them to make that statement. Big block Cobra? Well, I have not had the chance to drive one yet, but frankly I worry about the weight. My small block is crisp...I prefer that. But you might not. But nobody on the interweb can tell you what is right for you! But as long as I am up on my soapbox preaching, I would welcome the chance to drive a big block back to back with my car. Who knows, I might convert after that!

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

1.2 hp/ci is actually pretty pathetic. Any professional builder here could take a 378 inch SBF and make 460 hp in a streetable form.

I agree- But how much more is the customer going to pay for a custom engine, versus ordering a complete 500HP LS376 for $8200, right off the shelf?

I'm talking about "easily available, ready to run, off the shelf (or out of the junkyard)" engines.

And make no mistake - I'm not advocating that ANYONE should consider putting a GM engine in their Cobra replica, which would be tantamount to the similar sacrilege of putting an FE in your 62 Corvette. Some things are better left un-done.

But I still contend that Thor Maine's initial point is a valid one -

Originally Posted by blykins

Not to mention that naturally aspirated 5.0L Fords make 435 hp.....explain to me what's so nice about an LS?????

You're right- 1.4 is WAY better than 1.2.... in fact, it's .85% better

However, the Coyote weighs 430 pounds, to the GM's 418 pounds, which is 2% heavier, so the HP to weight ratio still favors the GM engine.

Originally Posted by blykins

But if you want to make a comparison on how things were in the 60's, then remind me how many times Chevy won Lemans.....

1960, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006

Ford won 1666, 1967, 1968, 1969

These are class-wins, and it is true that Ford has more overall wins at Lemans than Chevy (4-0) But, if we want to use that metric as a guideline for engine selection, then we should all be running Porsches (17 overall victories)...

[blykins]

Yeah, because that 12 lbs makes all the difference.

And yes, 1.4 is greater than 1.2. And trust me, from an engine builder's standpoint that is a HUGE difference....

The point here is that before anyone starts making comments about how the LS is superior to any Ford, then I would refer them back to that hp/ci number. It boils down to efficiency.

From my standpoint, very few will pay that $8200 because most guys don't want cookie cutter engines, which is the basically the staple of the GM family.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by Winchester67

Have to admit, I, without exception, ALWAYS click on these threads. Despite the fact I am pretty sure the person that started it already knows what they think the answer is. The answer is with the owner. Cobras are actually fun to drive unlike a lot of classic muscle cars, and I have owned enough of them to make that statement. !

HERE, HERE ! I'm with this guy - Simple wisdom that gets lost in the seas of personal bias and sentiment...

These cars are more fun to drive than much else out there (save the 6-figure Ariel Atom)

Good post.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by keezling

Hard to understand the logic of getting on a Ford product based site and talking trash about Chevy vs. Ford etc. What is your goal? What do you think will happen, mass exodus to the Corvette kit car market? Oh wait almost no one makes one, not much demand I guess... Lol

The Cobra was never a Ford product.

I am simply trying to make sure that technical facts don't get over shadowed by personal prejudices.

Flame away, if you must.

BTW - my car has "Powered by Ford" emblems on the side, for a reason...

[cycleguy55]

My experience in dealing with the general public is the questions usually go like this:

1. "Is it real" or "Is it an original"
2. Often followed up by "does it have a 427?", sometimes "does it have a 427 side-oiler?" or, infrequently, "does it have an FE?"

It appears most people who admire Cobras but who don't own one are most interested by whether it's an original or a replica, then by the type of engine that's installed. There is a clearly a mystique or reputation around the 427 FE engine in the minds of many, particularly the side-oiler version of the engine.

I'm not suggesting in any way that opinions of non-owners should sway the decisions of those who actually own one, but many building or buying Cobras share that same philosophy - the 'bad a** 427 Cobras' that created the brand image had FE engines so that's what they want. No argument here on that choice, and 50+ years of development since FEs first started rolling out the doors have made it possible to build better engines than Ford built.

Having said that, 385 and Windsor engines are both common choices as well. The former has the advantage of big displacement, HP and torque at a (relatively) low cost - albeit with a bit of a penalty in both bulk and weight. That's what I have and the torque makes it fun and easy to drive - especially just cruising around. OTOH, once most people hear it doesn't have an FE they're less interested - even if it is a better engine in many respects (e.g. canted valves, really strong bottom end, huge CID potential).

Windsor engines are obviously the smallest and lightest form factor of the three (all things being equal like block and head materials), and 427 CID and larger displacements are available. Even Ford produced a 460 CID crate engine on the Windsor platform. If an owner wanted to be able to honestly answer 'yes' to the "does it have a 427?" question, then that could be done with a Windsor. Routine maintenance s/b easier with more room around the engine and the lighter weight helps in balance and handling.

Coyote engines obviously have huge potential, especially for "out of the box" power levels, but they're wider than 385 engines (though obviously much lighter). The Coyote just doesn't do it for me in a Cobra - though one would be a blast in the right car (e.g. FFR '33 Hot Rod).

If I was building new today I'd go Windsor, most likely in the 408-427 CID range, primarily for weight and size reasons.

As to a non-Ford powerplant, that's just wrong. YMMV

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Windsor engines are obviously the smallest and lightest form factor of the three (all things being equal like block and head materials), and 427 CID and larger displacements are available. Even Ford produced a 460 CID crate engine on the Windsor platform. If an owner wanted to be able to honestly answer 'yes' to the "does it have a 427?" question, then that could be done with a Windsor. Routine maintenance s/b easier with more room around the engine and the lighter weight helps in balance and handling.

...

If I was building new today I'd go Windsor, most likely in the 408-427 CID range, primarily for weight and size reasons.

As to a non-Ford powerplant, that's just wrong. YMMV

I'm with this guy, too...

Great points Cycleguy

[CraftEngines]

Originally Posted by Winchester67

Have to admit, I, without exception, ALWAYS click on these threads. Despite the fact I am pretty sure the person that started it already knows what they think the answer is. The answer is with the owner. Cobras are actually fun to drive unlike a lot of classic muscle cars, and I have owned enough of them to make that statement. Big block Cobra? Well, I have not had the chance to drive one yet, but frankly I worry about the weight. My small block is crisp...I prefer that. But you might not. But nobody on the interweb can tell you what is right for you! But as long as I am up on my soapbox preaching, I would welcome the chance to drive a big block back to back with my car. Who knows, I might convert after that!

As mentioned in the original statement we do believe the engine is customer preference. That being said it is nice to see what you guys think. When someone calls me I can say.........................is the general consensus of the Cobra world. Really enjoy the discussion, thanks for all the input.

[RodKnock]

I love a good "small block vs big block, Chevy vs Ford" thread. We haven't had one of these in a few weeks.

If you want to go fast, go electric and buy a Tesla!

[Tim7139]

Given that these, at their core, are tribute cars, I think something in the same realm would likely be FE, Windsor based, followed by alloy blocks made by so many suppliers/builders.
Personal tastes always tend to have lots of devotee's but, myself, I kind of like the historic look with the internal improvements for that 1965 flashback appeal.

[EZ$]

Been sitting here reading the thread, and debating if I wanted to respond. When I read the discussion of the 1.2 to 1.4 hp/ci being a .85% increase I just couldn't not respond. That difference is actually a 17% increase, .2 divided by 1.2 = .17 or 17%. Since I have no knowledge of the differences between GM & Ford engines, (don't care, long term Ford guy), I'll go away now.

[Ace23]

The best engine is the one that makes enough power for whomever is driving it and doesn't blowup......how about that!

[DanEC]

Well Hell - lets not stop with a Chebbie. How about a 440 Mopar, or 455 Buick Stage 1, or an R3 306 Studebaker? Maybe we need a poll. Throw in the Tesla electric motor/battery pack too for good measure.

[jhv48]

Who gives a rat's ass what a Modern Chevy engine can or cannot do? If you are interested, go to the Chevy forum.

When I bought my replica, I wasn't interested in making an exact copy of a sixties icon. I wanted the look of the cobra coupled with an old school ford engine and a modern five speed tranny.

After comparing the FE and the SBF, in regards to weight, power, appearance, cost, size, leaking, etc, I went with a SBF. I wanted around 500 streetable, reliable horsepower, and also wanted to be around 427 cubic inches. Ended up with one of Brent's 438 SBF's and couldn't be happier. No valves to adjust, doesn't leak oil, and I can actually tell onlookers that it is a 427. And it has way more power than I am capable of using.

But, if originality is your thing, then an FE coupled to a top loader 4 speed is the only option.

[RodKnock]

And I get crap for discussing real versus replica.

Reminds me of a recent discussion on the P-car forum: "Why doesn't Porsche bring back the air-cooled engine?"

Pointless.

[Millsy]

Once i get my backdraft cobra (ordered 4/4 from Vintage) with the Coyote 5.0 i can then compare to the LS3 in my vette. One thing i know is both will go like a bat out of hell and thats all i care about. Some like authenticity, some are brand loyal, but i just like speed.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Well Hell - lets not stop with a Chebbie. How about a 440 Mopar, or 455 Buick Stage 1, or an R3 306 Studebaker? Maybe we need a poll. Throw in the Tesla electric motor/battery pack too for good measure.

Or maybe a Mopar TEN cylinder Viper engine...

You could call it the "Double Poison", or something catchy like that... Oh, Wait a minute...

Let's go back to Keith Craft's original question - After all he asked for opinions.... And all I've done in this thread is act like a pro-GM dick... (I'm good at that)

Well here's my opinion:

If I was doing a "correct appearing, tribute" car, then I guess an FIA/USRRC replica would mandate running a small block Windsor with Webbers, or an 8-horn EFI, while a Big Block tribute car should have a single carb FE side oiler if you are looking to emulate the full-comp cars, or a dual carb FE if you are looking for the SC pure street-car look.

Now, if you want to run "427" badges on the side of your replica, and you want that badge to accurately reflect your engine's displacement, without all the cost of an FE, then a 427 Windsor seems (to me) to be a fantastic option- Big block cubes, combined with small block weight and cost... I'll bet even Blykins would approve

I've actually been thinking a lot about this topic recently, because the '92 302w in my car is a great little engine, but could benefit greatly by a set of aluminum heads, and an updated induction system (and if I do swap out the induction, I would go with a top-center, carb style throttle body as a nod to historical appearance- I hate the appearance of the dog-leg intake)

But if I'm going to spend 5 grand re-doing the top end, then why not just spend $2500 more and drop in a larger-cube Windsor? (then I could also replace my "Powered by Ford" side badges with "427 Cobra" side badges, and not feel guilty about false-advertising

Sticking with a Windsor offers all the benefits of not having to cut and weld engine mounts, or replace front springs, and all that other misc. blah blah blah...

But regardless, I'd go that way LONG before I'd consider any GM engine (even one that is a technically superior base platform... )

[wouter37]

I have a chevy 350 for me it is not important if it is a Ford or a Chevy. For me the most important is a classic look and a clean engine bay.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

But if I'm going to spend 5 grand re-doing the top end, then why not just spend $2500 more and drop in a larger-cube Windsor? (then I could also replace my "Powered by Ford" side badges with "427 Cobra" side badges, and not feel guilty about false-advertising

Sticking with a Windsor offers all the benefits of not having to cut and weld engine mounts, or replace front springs, and all that other misc. blah blah blah...

But regardless, I'd go that way LONG before I'd consider any GM engine (even one that is a technically superior base platform... )

You could always create a hybrid - put FE valve covers on the Windsor with adapters.