Engine Option (Just For Discussion)

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

BTW, your analogy of "replica" vs. "kit car" is a false argument. These cars are not sold complete and need to be finished by the buyer and then registered following special DMV provisions for kit cars/component cars..

Not always. Mine is titled and registered following the DMV provisions for replicas.

[RodKnock]

IMO, there are no exact copies or replicas.

The Kirkham's (and Shelby's by extension) are on record that they designed their body with subtle cues that vary from an original 1960's Cobra. They designed and built them that way for a reason, so they would never be confused with an original. Also, the Kirkham alloy body is .059" thick whereas the original is/was .050" thick. These are just the basics.

Even the latest turnkey recreations, from Shelby, called "Competition Cobras," from Denbeste, Drew Serb & Kirkham, while close with all sorts of NOS and reproduction parts won't be exact copies. These are the facts and they're indisputable.

The knowledgable and experts of the marque will be able to tell the difference. Schmucks like me? Not so much.

Back to Cobra engines. Cammer all the way!

[blykins]

Sorta proves my point if you have to get the dial calipers out and measure aluminum thickness because the .009" difference isn't discernable by eye or hand....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

Sorta proves my point if you have to get the dial calipers out and measure aluminum thickness because the .009" difference isn't discernable by eye or hand....

No, it doesn't prove your point. Of course, you would use that one particular point from my post and ignore the rest to form your hypothesis. Have seen an original side-by-side with a Shelby/Kirkham replica? I have, a few times.

If you've seen the two (original, Kirkham/Shelby) side-by-side, it's obvious to the more-than-casual observer. Besides cues of the exterior body, materials such as seats, shocks, wheels, knobs, gauges, batteries, roll bars, exhaust, rivets, etc. It goes on and on.

[blykins]

A Kirkham or a CSX is going to be more "exact" than a FFR. That's what I'm getting at.

A replica is a replica. When you have to sit down and argue about the body material thickness, the exact grade of leather, or the type of rivet used, then we get back to straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Considering no two original CSX cars were built exactly alike, I think there has to be a little "tolerance" there....but the tolerance isn't so +/- that it includes SBC engines and Viper V-10's. Shelby had his hand in the Dodge Omni GLH-S as well, but that doesn't give us license to all put 4-cylinders in our Cobras....but that's some of the logic that gets passed around here.

Put a picture of an original beside the picture of a new Kirkham, beside the picture of the "Cobra" with the VW engine and maybe all this will hit home. There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

A Kirkham or a CSX is going to be more "exact" than a FFR. That's what I'm getting at.

A replica is a replica. When you have to sit down and argue about the body material thickness, the exact grade of leather, or the type of rivet used, then we get back to straining the gnat and swallowing the camel.

Put a picture of an original beside the picture of a new Kirkham, beside the picture of the "Cobra" with the VW engine and maybe all this will hit home. There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

You can call them anything you want, copies, reproductions, replicas, clones, tributes, kit cars, etc. I don't really care. It's all the same to me. Folks invent/use new adjectives to make themselves feel better. BUT, there aren't any exact copies. Period.

"More exact"? "More authentic"? That's some funny use of the English language.

[blykins]

I've never professed to being an English scholar.

Maybe I should have used "exacter"? I didn't know the point of this thread was to point out grammar flaws. Was that point made to try and detract from my credibility? Seems a little out of place.

BTW, I'm not on an Evan kick. I don't agree with him in the fact that continuation Cobras (or Kirkhams) are the real thing. However, I think if your goal is to make a replica, you don't start off with a Viper V-10.

[Bernica]

Seems pretty simple. You can't go back in time and pluck an original. Whatever is built today is, at best, a "loyal representation" of back in the day and many should be respected for doing just that. That's the way it is and some folks need to just settle with that fact, IMHO.

[*13*]

If we're looking for numbers in this thread, count me in for an engine that closely replicates what the particular car in question had. My first real lust with the cobra came at a gas station where a cobra was filling up next to me. It was the sound coming out of that beast that changed me forever.
Research led me deeper into the rabbit hole. The look, the sound, the body lines. It all captivated me. The only reason, for me, to build a replica was to replicate the look & feel of a car, as close as possible. While even mine, is far from a perfect replication, it gets me close to the dream. I can't imagine placing anything under the hood that wouldn't do that. I'm not a Ford guy any more than I am a Mopar or Chevy guy. I just don't see the sense in building a cobra with anything other than what they were powered by.
At the same time, I know we all get into this for different reasons & with different ideas. I respect that.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by blykins

A Kirkham or a CSX is going to be more "exact" than a FFR. That's what I'm getting at.

A replica is a replica. When you have to sit down and argue about the body material thickness, the exact grade of leather, or the type of rivet used, then we get back to straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Considering no two original CSX cars were built exactly alike, I think there has to be a little "tolerance" there....but the tolerance isn't so +/- that it includes SBC engines and Viper V-10's. Shelby had his hand in the Dodge Omni GLH-S as well, but that doesn't give us license to all put 4-cylinders in our Cobras....but that's some of the logic that gets passed around here.

Put a picture of an original beside the picture of a new Kirkham, beside the picture of the "Cobra" with the VW engine and maybe all this will hit home. There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

By your "logic" that you're passing around here, 90%+ of the cars owned by members here are lowly kit cars. Outside of the tiny minority that own alloy bodied "replicas", all of the rest are composite bodied cars with various mixes of chassis, suspension and miscellaneous other departures from the original cars that disqualify them from being replicas. In that case, WTH difference does it make what powertrain we choose when we're all driving "kit cars" anyway?
You decide that engine brand is the deal breaker, but to others it might be wheelbase, stance, appearance, suspension, rollbars or any of a dozen other criteria. Or maybe it doesn't matter at all. Like everyone else you're welcome to your opinion - just don't try to push it as the gold standard criteria of judgement.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Buzz

You decide that engine brand is the deal breaker, but to others it might be wheelbase, stance, appearance, suspension, rollbars or any of a dozen other criteria. Or maybe it doesn't matter at all.

Yep - The dog leg shifter... I mean, if it doesn't have one of those, then it aint worthy of joining in with all the reindeer games!


Blykins does raise a valid point... When does the mutation morph it away from being a Cobra?

May be if we all were pressed on the matter, we'd probably agree him, and Evan on this point... A dune buggy with a cobra body is not (strictly speaking), any more a replica to a Cobra, as it is a butchered example of a VW Beetle.

[Joe's Garage]

427/428 cubes? How many hard core FE guys meet that criteria - not many.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

427/428 cubes? How many hard core FE guys meet that criteria - not many.

I think you are wrong. Plenty of guys here that can prove it. You are trolling for someone to take the bait, I think.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

I've never professed to being an English scholar.

Maybe I should have used "exacter"? I didn't know the point of this thread was to point out grammar flaws. Was that point made to try and detract from my credibility? Seems a little out of place.

BTW, I'm not on an Evan kick. I don't agree with him in the fact that continuation Cobras (or Kirkhams) are the real thing. However, I think if your goal is to make a replica, you don't start off with a Viper V-10.

You seem to me to be on an "Evan kick." Just tangentially. He wanted to define a Shelby CSX4000 as something other than replica. A real authentic Shelby Cobra. You're trying to define what is or isn't a Cobra replica. In his honor, I'll borrow one of Evan's favorite expressions. "It's all in the Registry."

Page 30 and I quote, "Kit Car OR Replica. Any car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using ANY kind of frame, suspension, brakes and drivetrain."

Thor has a Cobra replica and he has a Chevy engine. Jeff McCabe, one of our NorCal members has an electric engine, he has a Cobra replica. Replicas are replicas. If someone wants to use a dune buggy with a Cobra body, then it's still a Cobra replica.

Notwithstanding SAAC's definition, everyone here can have an opinion of what is or isn't a replica. No worries.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I think you are wrong. Plenty of guys here that can prove it. You are trolling for someone to take the bait, I think.

All I know is when I see a quality replica that looks authentic with 427 fender badges and all the right knick knacks, and then find out it has a 460 FE in it, my first thought is what a colossal brain fart

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

All I know is when I see a quality replica that looks authentic with 427 fender badges and all the right knick knacks, and then find out it has a 460 FE in it, my first thought is what a colossal brain fart

When I look under the hood of a very well done Cobra replica, Kit, HotRod shaped like a Cobra and I see a Chevy or a Hemi or Viper V10 or a Buick Grand National V6, Mopar HellCat or some other really cool motor , I think " WOW outside the box Let's go for a ride". I look under the hood and I see a Ford motor I think "Wow super cool, let's go for a ride" Its all good just enjoy the ride!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

There are replicas......and there are kit cars.

Then I own both. I bought a Kirkham roller and had a shop install an engine and transmission, which I had purchased separately. And then I registered it under the CA SPCNS (kit car) program. And, it looks kinda like a Cobra, at least to me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Yep - The dog leg shifter... I mean, if it doesn't have one of those, then it aint worthy of joining in with all the reindeer games!

I'll have to agree with you there. Small block Cobras, slabsides and FIA's, aren't Cobra replicas. Big block bodies only.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Well, I'm inspired now with all of this engine swapping, cross pollination talk. Think I'm going to pull the 427 out of my 66 Corvette and install it in the ERA. It's a pretty rowdy engine so kind of goes with a Cobra. Next, I'll pull the 440 out of my 67 GTX and plug it into the Corvette - it needs to be calmed down a little anyway. And the FE can go into the 67 GTX because it's kind of heavy and could use a bit more torque. That should keep the boys down at the monthly Sonic cruise night talking for awhile.

I think I'm going to follow Dan's example and transplant my air-cooled 911 engine into my Cobra. I mean some idiots, er, enthusiasts, put Chevy's into "original" 911's for heaven's sake.

[Ace23]

I just have to say who would want a real cobra other than for the potential value of selling it. Can you imagine what a giant pain in the ass it would be to have an original.....you would be a complete basket of nerves driving it around and it would be a 50 year old car that you would be tinkering around with. I will take my Superformance professional kit car any day of the week. I am not saying there is anything wrong with owning an original car.....if you have the financial means and it floats your boat then that is excellent. I really like to drive my car and I can't see how practical it would be to drive an original and beat the crap out of it. You also couldn't bring yourself to modify anything or put your taste on it. Just sit back and think to yourself how great it is we can all have and or build our own version of what we want in a Cobra for $50-150K.

I guarantee you if first generation camaros were 1 million dollars there would be a market flooded with kit/replica cars and people would be rolling in cars with all types of new age suspension and powertrains. The cobra market is no different they just happened to make a much smaller quantity of them. Now back to the motor talk! Let's here about power potential, reliability and cost instead of what the heck the valve covers look like