Which Cobra Handles Best?

[Buzz]

Most Cobras, including big blocks are pretty neutrally balanced (50/50) front to rear because of the rearward placement of the drivetrain. The 289's had an archaic leaf-sprung suspension, but the redesigned 427's were brought up to date (circa back then) with their coil-sprung chassis.

The often repeated myth that Cobras are nose-heavy and tail-light is just that: a myth. The limitations they face are in their dimensions; wheelbase and track, along with poor high-speed aerodynamics and the old manual brakes and steering.

Absolutely true that a competent suspension guru could do wonders - as evidenced by Morris's Kirkham and by CSX3170, who is generally holding his own and kicking butt with an original Cobra against late model, race-tuned machinery.

[Cracker]

Cobra's are hot-rods...they were back in the 60's and still are today (especially the kit-cars out-there). Anyone who has spent a considerable time on the track will understand that there is a UNIVERSE of difference between a competent, reliable track car and that of a "hot-rod". There was a time when I thought the multiple Cobra's I owned would have been more of a true performance car - that was before I knew anything - now I do.

I have also seen first hand what it takes to make a Cobra effective on the track...it means you make it generally un-Cobra-like. Not a knock in the least but so many changes have to be made that it changes the essence of the original concept. For those who attempt to drive their "hot-rod" in anger, whether on the street (highly ill-advised) or track, please be very careful.

I currently own arguably the most powerful Cobra on the planet and it has an ugly 12-point cage (but oh so necessary). A cobra that was actually meant to go-fast, properly, must also have massive modifications to keep the pilot alive in a mishap. They are not safe in typical dress...its all for show. Function takes the lead step in a real performance car - even in a Cobra...

Tony

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Cobra's are hot-rods...they were back in the 60's and still are today (especially the kit-cars out-there). Anyone who has spent a considerable time on the track will understand that there is a UNIVERSE of difference between a competent, reliable track car and that of a "hot-rod". There was a time when I thought the multiple Cobra's I owned would have been more of a true performance car - that was before I knew anything - now I do.

I have also seen first hand what it takes to make a Cobra effective on the track...it means you make it generally un-Cobra-like. Not a knock in the least but so many changes have to be made that it changes the essence of the original concept. For those who attempt to drive their "hot-rod" in anger, whether on the street (highly ill-advised) or track, please be very careful.

I currently own arguably the most powerful Cobra on the planet - along with its 12-point cage. A cobra that was actually meant to go-fast, properly, must also have massive modifications to keep the pilot alive in a mishap. They are not safe in typical dress...its all for show. Function takes the lead step in a real performance car - even in a Cobra...

Tony

CSX3170 is a hot rod? I think not . And although it has had extensive suspension mods and adjustments, I'm sure it's still very Cobra-like.
Not all replicas are created equal, so while there is iron in your words, it doesn't apply to all. GS-Cobra in Germany builds an awesome performing replica that looks the goods from the outside, but uses up to date date tech for everything from drivetrain to tires. XCS Cobra (UK) does as well, but both (XCS even more so) feature refinements that deviate from the original in feel and performance.
I also can't agree that the signature Cobra features are "all for show". While there are replicas being built with exaggerated fender bulges, cosmetic roll bars and shiny sidepipes that are more a styling exercise than anything else, true (and well-replicated) 427 Cobras have fender bulges to accommodate big tires and suspension travel under low-slung coachwork. The roll bar was functional (inadequate by modern standards, granted) and the sidepipes were there to allow large diameter exhausts without compromising ride height and ground clearance. They happen to look good but they were not conceived for styling or show.

The most powerful Cobra on the planet - I remember your epic KC dyno challenge thread from a while back, but I couldn't find anything on this car. Can you fill us in on the details? Is it the one in your album with the moon capped wheels? I'd love to hear more.

[Cracker]

Buzz: Outliers are always present...no matter the topic of conversation. If I were to plop a 427 body on top of a c7 chassis - that is not a Cobra to me - same is true with outliers you speak of in your examples. If said cars represent less than 1% of all Cobras and replicars made - it really is non-representative of what I am referencing. Understand?

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Regarding the moon wheeled car - yes, it is immensely powerful.

PS: Typing from my phone...please forgive errors!

Tony

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by Cracker

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Tony

3170 does fare well against far more modern machinery. There are several threads about this and numerous videos. I don't know what you've done to your old 914, but unless its heavily modified I suspect you'd be handed your arse on a platter. All pointless bench racing anyway. Suffice to say we disagree.

So you're being all coy about your "most powerful Cobra on the planet", but if you don't want to talk about it, why the hell bring it up in the first place?

[Cracker]

Buzz - I am more than happy to have a differing view - your's as well. Mine is grounded from years of on-track experience; not knowing your background, your's may be as well. Not all drivers sharing time on track always see things the same way - no biggie and nothing personal. The POINT of the "powerful Cobra" comment was reinforcing that Cobras intended for actual performance driving require substantial safety improvements by today's standards. Allot of drivers from racings' past went on way to early. I am a bit surprised that went over your head. Regarding the "powerful" car...I am merely a caretaker of it. I had nothing to do with its creation. My dear late friend built it along side Jon Kaase - allot of the chassis was built there too.

Kind regards,

Tony

[Buzz]

Thanks for the clarification.

All the best.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Buzz: Outliers are always present...no matter the topic of conversation. If I were to plop a 427 body on top of a c7 chassis - that is not a Cobra to me - same is true with outliers you speak of in your examples. If said cars represent less than 1% of all Cobras and replicars made - it really is non-representative of what I am referencing. Understand?

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Regarding the moon wheeled car - yes, it is immensely powerful.

PS: Typing from my phone...please forgive errors!

Tony

I am probably going to regret jumping in on this thread but feel the need to
to defend poor old CSX 3170. I am primarily an autoxer but have raced Formula Atlantic cars in the past and various other machines over the years.
People tend to put down autoxing as racing around cones in a parking lot especially if they have not done it. It is far more difficult than road racing from a technical standpoint (I am speaking of amateur racing not professional
levels). My car was developed specifically for autox so that is what it does
best it is also developed around 200 tw street tires. Having said that I have no doubt that it's track performance would also be quite good. You are
correct it would be extremely unsafe for the driver and car so no track days for me. I also own a very competitive 991 GT3 Porsche that won the 2016 and 2017 Solo2 National Championship in SS. It beat Porsche GT3's and GT4's, C7 Corvette's and a new Honda NSX hybrid last week at the Nationals.
Now that we have established it's credentials my Cobra is 1 to 2 seconds faster than my GT3 on the same autox track using the same Bridgestone tires. The only difference is the Cobra uses 1 size larger front tire.
We have the Cobra instrumented and it pulls over 1.45 G's in lateral acceleration and 1.2 G's in braking. We have seen 1.1 to 1.2 G's in acceleration all the way to 90 mph so the car stops, goes and turns well by any standards. We have no aero dynamic aids so Morris can take on the "semi racing hot rods" that do. The Cobra has 19x12" rear and 18x11" front wheels, 6 piston front brakes with full floating 13" slotted rotors and 4 piston 12" rear rotors. The engine is red lined at 9300 rpm and makes 820 hp and 556 lb/ft. Weight distribution is 48/52 at 2370#. Suspension is my design and has excellent camber gain and relatively perfect bump steer, bring on those new cars! Here is a video from several years ago with old engine. It made 850 with 632 lb/ft but would only turn 8200 it has a 3:31 rear and has the following speeds in gear @8200 1- 83, 2 - 112, 3 - 148 notice how well it pulls gears we could not use full throttle because of wheel spin, bring on that 914!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedl...hpJ1Q&index=46


I think Jon Kaase is the best Ford engine builder out there but getting it to the ground is the hard part.

[Cracker]

It appears to work very nicely...nice driving! With 820 hp; very wide wheels, and large brakes...doesn't this seem to qualify for my "outlier" classification for a Cobra? A custom suspension of your own design (check!); modified braking front and rear (check!); a race-motor (check!) - well, you get the point.

Not that my 914 stands any kind of chance against such an animal (well reptile actually) - I enjoy a friendly challenge. Come on down to Roebling Road in Savannah (Road Atlanta or Barber for that matter if you would prefer) - first week in December. Whoever has the fastest five-consecutive laps pays the others registration fees. I haven't a fraction of your power, braking, or tire (heck I only run 7 & 9's). It appears to be a no lose challenge for you #3170...are you game?

Thanks for responding...it looks like quite the car.

Tony

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

With 820 hp; very wide wheels, and large brakes...doesn't this seem to qualify for my "outlier" classification for a Cobra? A custom suspension of your own design (check!); modified braking front and rear (check!); a race-motor (check!) - well, you get the point. It appears to work very nicely...nice driving!

Not that my 914 stands any kind of chance against such an animal (well reptile actually) - I enjoy a friendly challenge. Come on down to Roebling Road in Savannah (Road Atlanta or Barber for that matter if you would prefer) - first week in December. Whoever has the fastest five-consecutive laps pays the others registration fees. I haven't a fraction of your power, braking, or tire (heck I only run 7 & 9's). It appears to be a no lose challenge for you #3170...are you game?

Thanks for responding (really) it looks like quite the car.

Tony

What a great idea make a 5000 mile round trip to run against a track car on slicks with a street legal autox car!
I have two alternates for you
1. Put 200 TW street tires on your 914 and meet half way across country at and autox to see how they stack up.
2. I will be taking delivery of a more suitable track car next year and would be glad to compare it to your 914 at Circuit of the America's in Texas (about half way).

The Cobra is irreplaceable so it will not see another track day in my life time (maybe the next owner).
914's can be great track cars because they have a low polar moment and Porsche engines are very good. I raced a guy at Grattan Raceway in Michigan many years ago with my home made autox car at a Porsche club event. He had a twin plug 3.2 engine and was quite fast. I had a 4cy BDA in the autox car and lapped him. The Porsche people were all quite shocked because he was their fastest guy.

I have tested at Roebling road and there are a number of places that could cause significant damage with an off.

How about bringing out "Worlds Most Powerful Cobra"?

[cobrakiwi]

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...


Why all the rules? Just run the cars

[Cracker]

How much racing have you done? All racing classes are rule-goverened...otherwise, Frankenstein cars with 800+ hp, big tires and brakes are brought - but not in this case due to safety and value. Build a Cobra within reasonable parameters and see which platform is best. Original suspenaion run originally to cars required - mine has torsion bars - nothing wrong with them - 1970's technology still works.

A race car with a Cobra body on top is not a Cobra...sigh.

T

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by Cracker

How much racing have you done? All racing classes are rule-goverened...otherwise, Frankenstein cars with 800+ hp, big tires and brakes are brought - but not in this case due to safety and value. Build a Cobra within reasonable parameters and see which platform is best. Original suspenaion run originally to cars required - mine has torsion bars - nothing wrong with them - 1970's technology still works.

A race car with a Cobra body on top is not a Cobra...sigh.

T

What are you going on about?
You piped up and claimed your old 914 could out preform 3170, no? (I think not by the way)
Then you start in on rules this change that etc, wtf!

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

How much racing have you done? All racing classes are rule-goverened...otherwise, Frankenstein cars with 800+ hp, big tires and brakes are brought - but not in this case due to safety and value. Build a Cobra within reasonable parameters and see which platform is best. Original suspension run originally to cars required - mine has torsion bars - nothing wrong with them - 1970's technology still works.

A race car with a Cobra body on top is not a Cobra...sigh.

T

I think that it is ironic that you are calling cars with suspension and engine modifications not a Cobra. Your 914-6 has major body modifications, rear wing and a front splitter that are far beyond 1970's technology. I am betting that is not an original 2.7 L engine either. My Cobra has the exact shape that it was delivered with and with the exception of wheels is identical in appearance to it's 1965 delivery appearance. My Porsche is also in as delivered condition no extra aero or flares there either. Since you don't consider aerodynamic modifications as effecting early technology perhaps we should bring Morris's Cobra into the mix. Do you think you could match his lap times around Road America?