Which Cobra Handles Best?

[Cracker]

Buzz: Outliers are always present...no matter the topic of conversation. If I were to plop a 427 body on top of a c7 chassis - that is not a Cobra to me - same is true with outliers you speak of in your examples. If said cars represent less than 1% of all Cobras and replicars made - it really is non-representative of what I am referencing. Understand?

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Regarding the moon wheeled car - yes, it is immensely powerful.

PS: Typing from my phone...please forgive errors!

Tony

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by Cracker

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Tony

3170 does fare well against far more modern machinery. There are several threads about this and numerous videos. I don't know what you've done to your old 914, but unless its heavily modified I suspect you'd be handed your arse on a platter. All pointless bench racing anyway. Suffice to say we disagree.

So you're being all coy about your "most powerful Cobra on the planet", but if you don't want to talk about it, why the hell bring it up in the first place?

[Cracker]

Buzz - I am more than happy to have a differing view - your's as well. Mine is grounded from years of on-track experience; not knowing your background, your's may be as well. Not all drivers sharing time on track always see things the same way - no biggie and nothing personal. The POINT of the "powerful Cobra" comment was reinforcing that Cobras intended for actual performance driving require substantial safety improvements by today's standards. Allot of drivers from racings' past went on way to early. I am a bit surprised that went over your head. Regarding the "powerful" car...I am merely a caretaker of it. I had nothing to do with its creation. My dear late friend built it along side Jon Kaase - allot of the chassis was built there too.

Kind regards,

Tony

[Buzz]

Thanks for the clarification.

All the best.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Buzz: Outliers are always present...no matter the topic of conversation. If I were to plop a 427 body on top of a c7 chassis - that is not a Cobra to me - same is true with outliers you speak of in your examples. If said cars represent less than 1% of all Cobras and replicars made - it really is non-representative of what I am referencing. Understand?

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...

Regarding the moon wheeled car - yes, it is immensely powerful.

PS: Typing from my phone...please forgive errors!

Tony

I am probably going to regret jumping in on this thread but feel the need to
to defend poor old CSX 3170. I am primarily an autoxer but have raced Formula Atlantic cars in the past and various other machines over the years.
People tend to put down autoxing as racing around cones in a parking lot especially if they have not done it. It is far more difficult than road racing from a technical standpoint (I am speaking of amateur racing not professional
levels). My car was developed specifically for autox so that is what it does
best it is also developed around 200 tw street tires. Having said that I have no doubt that it's track performance would also be quite good. You are
correct it would be extremely unsafe for the driver and car so no track days for me. I also own a very competitive 991 GT3 Porsche that won the 2016 and 2017 Solo2 National Championship in SS. It beat Porsche GT3's and GT4's, C7 Corvette's and a new Honda NSX hybrid last week at the Nationals.
Now that we have established it's credentials my Cobra is 1 to 2 seconds faster than my GT3 on the same autox track using the same Bridgestone tires. The only difference is the Cobra uses 1 size larger front tire.
We have the Cobra instrumented and it pulls over 1.45 G's in lateral acceleration and 1.2 G's in braking. We have seen 1.1 to 1.2 G's in acceleration all the way to 90 mph so the car stops, goes and turns well by any standards. We have no aero dynamic aids so Morris can take on the "semi racing hot rods" that do. The Cobra has 19x12" rear and 18x11" front wheels, 6 piston front brakes with full floating 13" slotted rotors and 4 piston 12" rear rotors. The engine is red lined at 9300 rpm and makes 820 hp and 556 lb/ft. Weight distribution is 48/52 at 2370#. Suspension is my design and has excellent camber gain and relatively perfect bump steer, bring on those new cars! Here is a video from several years ago with old engine. It made 850 with 632 lb/ft but would only turn 8200 it has a 3:31 rear and has the following speeds in gear @8200 1- 83, 2 - 112, 3 - 148 notice how well it pulls gears we could not use full throttle because of wheel spin, bring on that 914!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedl...hpJ1Q&index=46


I think Jon Kaase is the best Ford engine builder out there but getting it to the ground is the hard part.

[Cracker]

It appears to work very nicely...nice driving! With 820 hp; very wide wheels, and large brakes...doesn't this seem to qualify for my "outlier" classification for a Cobra? A custom suspension of your own design (check!); modified braking front and rear (check!); a race-motor (check!) - well, you get the point.

Not that my 914 stands any kind of chance against such an animal (well reptile actually) - I enjoy a friendly challenge. Come on down to Roebling Road in Savannah (Road Atlanta or Barber for that matter if you would prefer) - first week in December. Whoever has the fastest five-consecutive laps pays the others registration fees. I haven't a fraction of your power, braking, or tire (heck I only run 7 & 9's). It appears to be a no lose challenge for you #3170...are you game?

Thanks for responding...it looks like quite the car.

Tony

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

With 820 hp; very wide wheels, and large brakes...doesn't this seem to qualify for my "outlier" classification for a Cobra? A custom suspension of your own design (check!); modified braking front and rear (check!); a race-motor (check!) - well, you get the point. It appears to work very nicely...nice driving!

Not that my 914 stands any kind of chance against such an animal (well reptile actually) - I enjoy a friendly challenge. Come on down to Roebling Road in Savannah (Road Atlanta or Barber for that matter if you would prefer) - first week in December. Whoever has the fastest five-consecutive laps pays the others registration fees. I haven't a fraction of your power, braking, or tire (heck I only run 7 & 9's). It appears to be a no lose challenge for you #3170...are you game?

Thanks for responding (really) it looks like quite the car.

Tony

What a great idea make a 5000 mile round trip to run against a track car on slicks with a street legal autox car!
I have two alternates for you
1. Put 200 TW street tires on your 914 and meet half way across country at and autox to see how they stack up.
2. I will be taking delivery of a more suitable track car next year and would be glad to compare it to your 914 at Circuit of the America's in Texas (about half way).

The Cobra is irreplaceable so it will not see another track day in my life time (maybe the next owner).
914's can be great track cars because they have a low polar moment and Porsche engines are very good. I raced a guy at Grattan Raceway in Michigan many years ago with my home made autox car at a Porsche club event. He had a twin plug 3.2 engine and was quite fast. I had a 4cy BDA in the autox car and lapped him. The Porsche people were all quite shocked because he was their fastest guy.

I have tested at Roebling road and there are a number of places that could cause significant damage with an off.

How about bringing out "Worlds Most Powerful Cobra"?

[Cracker]

I think we just might be able to do something here...however, to even the un-level playing field a couple of ground-rules are required. First, my 914 is a simple well-behaved, street-legal floor-pan car with a stock-ish engine. I would expect the same of any Cobra you bring - breathing and spitting fire with a race engine ain't the deal - pump gas only. Anyone can bring a "ringer" to the track - not the point to our little fun game.

1) If you ARE building another Cobra for our "fun" event - lets limit the engine output to 600 crank hp. I am under that window...
2) I have a substantially smaller footprint than #3170 and this provides a nice trade-off for the Hoosiers I use (1/3+ less tire) - they are not a true slick.
3) Minimum weight = 2400 lbs (the 914 weights 2450)
4) I have never been to COTA but would be game - it will require some coordination but I would thoroughly enjoy the trip. Just an alternative, I was planning a trip to Road America (bucket list) - will you consider that as an alternative venue?

PS: Regarding my miss-quoted (as in half-quoted ) line about the "powerful Cobra" - lets be fair. Here is the original quote, "I currently own arguably the most powerful Cobra on the planet and it has an ugly 12-point cage (but oh so necessary)." It is not as brazen as it is being portrayed...eh? It is a Kaase 600-inch Boss motor wearing his engine masters winning heads - among a whole bunch of other goodies. It was solely built for a standing mile competition - not a road course.

Regarding Roebling - yes, there are a couple places that can get you in trouble but is really about as trouble free as a real track can be - agreed?

Cheers!

Tony
PM me your contact information please...

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I have two alternates for you
1. Put 200 TW street tires on your 914 and meet half way across country at and autox to see how they stack up.
2. I will be taking delivery of a more suitable track car next year and would be glad to compare it to your 914 at Circuit of the America's in Texas (about half way).

I have tested at Roebling road and there are a number of places that could cause significant damage with an off.

How about bringing out "Worlds Most Powerful Cobra"?

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

I think we just might be able to do something here...however, to even the un-level playing field a couple of ground-rules are required. First, my 914 is a simple well-behaved, street-legal floor-pan car with a stock-ish engine. I would expect the same of any Cobra you bring - breathing and spitting fire with a race engine ain't the deal - pump gas only. Anyone can bring a "ringer" to the track - not the point to our little fun game.

1) If you ARE building another Cobra for our "fun" event - lets limit the engine output to 600 crank hp. I am under that window...
2) I have a substantially smaller footprint than #3170 and this provides a nice trade-off for the Hoosiers I use (1/3+ less tire) - they are not a true slick.
3) Minimum weight = 2400 lbs (the 914 weights 2450)
4) I have never been to COTA but would be game - it will require some coordination but I would thoroughly enjoy the trip. Just an alternative, I was planning a trip to Road America (bucket list) - will you consider that as an alternative venue?

PS: Regarding my miss-quoted (as in half-quoted ) line about the "powerful Cobra" - lets be fair. Here is the original quote, "I currently own arguably the most powerful Cobra on the planet and it has an ugly 12-point cage (but oh so necessary)." It is not as brazen as it is being portrayed...eh? It is a Kaase 600-inch Boss motor wearing his engine masters winning heads - among a whole bunch of other goodies. It was solely built for a standing mile competition - not a road course.

Regarding Roebling - yes, there are a couple places that can get you in trouble but is really about as trouble free as a real track can be - agreed?

Cheers!

Tony
PM me your contact information please...

I am not building another Cobra, one is more than enough I can see I am not getting my message across, my Cobra will not be going on another road course again no matter what the conditions.

Hoosier tires are better than most slicks even Avon's if you are talking about A6 or A7. If your car is that stock the guys in cup cars or 991 GT3's are either on street tires are cannot drive. I should be getting a 2018 Ford GT in late 2018 or early 2019 that should be a great track car to compare to your 914. I think the Cobra would beat you in an autox even if you ran Hoosiers based on your description. We have a tube frame winged 914 out here that runs Porsche club events on Hoosiers that has lost to my Cobra or barely beat it several times. There is also an LS powered 914 but I have not compared times to him. I would agree to running the GT3 on Hoosiers against your 914 at road America. Road america has so many long straits you would need a turbo or high output N/A to keep up with a 991 especially considering the PDK and aero vs a 914.
In summation; if your car is as described we can autox it against the Cobra on street tires and you on Hoosiers. we can meet at Road America and I will put my GT3 on Hoosiers and use pump gas since you say that 991 GT3's are no problem.

RE. Worlds most powerful Cobra I do not consider anything that does not go around corners a Cobra. That is a Cobra silhouette 1 mile car, not a Cobra.
That is like calling John Force's old Mustang Funny Car a Mustang. What were they thinking anyway, Cobra's have terrible aerodynamics.

[Cracker]

DEAL!

Lets do the PCA Club Race at Road America next Labor day - a 4-day event to boot! The "DE" arm of the event still requires all vehicles to be of Porsche marque. The only down-side is this moves away from the whole point of the original discussion - no problem here. It will be a pleasure to share the track with you nonetheless...

Regarding Cobra's going around corners (only); does "Dragon Snake #3198" ring a bell?

Tony

991 GT3, Hoosiers, Pump Gas
vs
914R, Hoosiers, Pump Gas

Its on!!!

[cobrakiwi]

#3170 wouldn't fare well against tge majority of semi-racy hot rods of today...that does not diminish what it is and accomplished. It does, however, put the phenomenal advancement that has occurred over the last 50-years. Heck, even my old 1970 914 would outperform it...


Why all the rules? Just run the cars

[Cracker]

How much racing have you done? All racing classes are rule-goverened...otherwise, Frankenstein cars with 800+ hp, big tires and brakes are brought - but not in this case due to safety and value. Build a Cobra within reasonable parameters and see which platform is best. Original suspenaion run originally to cars required - mine has torsion bars - nothing wrong with them - 1970's technology still works.

A race car with a Cobra body on top is not a Cobra...sigh.

T

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by Cracker

How much racing have you done? All racing classes are rule-goverened...otherwise, Frankenstein cars with 800+ hp, big tires and brakes are brought - but not in this case due to safety and value. Build a Cobra within reasonable parameters and see which platform is best. Original suspenaion run originally to cars required - mine has torsion bars - nothing wrong with them - 1970's technology still works.

A race car with a Cobra body on top is not a Cobra...sigh.

T

What are you going on about?
You piped up and claimed your old 914 could out preform 3170, no? (I think not by the way)
Then you start in on rules this change that etc, wtf!

[Cracker]

I would be happy to run the teener against #3170 but he has made it abundantly clear that will not happen. We have a back-up plan now at a great track too - he claims the GT3 is just a tad slower than the Cobra. So there is some basis of comparison.

Pipe-up to him about the car change - not me. I did not change cars...

Tony

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

What are you going on about?
You piped up and claimed your old 914 could out preform 3170, no? (I think not by the way)
Then you start in on rules this change that etc, wtf!

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by Cracker

I would be happy to run the teener against #3170 but he has made it abundantly clear that will not happen. We have a back-up plan now at a great track too - he claims the GT3 is just a tad slower than the Cobra. So there is some basis of comparison.

Pipe-up to him about the car change - not me. I did not change cars...

Tony

Sorry can't do it, i have to much respect for Bruce.

But i do understand why he may not be interested in risking 3170.

You may have dodged that one!

All good fun!!

[Cracker]

Yes it is. Also in fairness to Bruce - he never changed cars, he just never entered it! Although my car does run its original suspension - it is also the fastest known 914 in the world. I'll be looking forward to spanking a new GT3!

Tony

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Cracker

How much racing have you done? All racing classes are rule-goverened...otherwise, Frankenstein cars with 800+ hp, big tires and brakes are brought - but not in this case due to safety and value. Build a Cobra within reasonable parameters and see which platform is best. Original suspension run originally to cars required - mine has torsion bars - nothing wrong with them - 1970's technology still works.

A race car with a Cobra body on top is not a Cobra...sigh.

T

I think that it is ironic that you are calling cars with suspension and engine modifications not a Cobra. Your 914-6 has major body modifications, rear wing and a front splitter that are far beyond 1970's technology. I am betting that is not an original 2.7 L engine either. My Cobra has the exact shape that it was delivered with and with the exception of wheels is identical in appearance to it's 1965 delivery appearance. My Porsche is also in as delivered condition no extra aero or flares there either. Since you don't consider aerodynamic modifications as effecting early technology perhaps we should bring Morris's Cobra into the mix. Do you think you could match his lap times around Road America?