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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:37 AM
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I'm not in agreement with the cylinder head design between Ford and Chevy. The biggest issue was that half of Chevy's offerings around this time were much larger than Ford's. Ford had the 289 and 302. Chevy had a 283, 327, and 350. The Ford head design isn't poor, if you look closely at modern cylinder head offerings in "standard" port/angle layout, you will see that the aftermarket Ford heads perform so much better than a SBC head.

With all that being said, I'm not a Chevy hater, per se. I'm an engine guy all the way around, I just think that Ford has a better product.

In addition, I would give someone the same amount of grief if they stuck a Ford engine in a GM product.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
No, the Windsors available in Australia from the mid ‘60s through to around 2002 (minus a few years in there somewhere) weren't derived from the Clevelands. Cleveland 351s and a small number of 302C engines were also available, but only from 1970 to 1982.

There were two Windsor engines available for the last few years up to the cut-off in November 2002 ….a 5.0 litre and also a 5.6 litre (a 5.0 with a 3.4 inch stroke).

Some of these engines were stripped, blueprinted and rebuilt by Tickford (then a subsidiary of Ford) and fitted to Falcons and Fairlanes, so technically, even though they were made in the US late last century, they were still being fitted 'new" to Fords up until late 2002. The later 5.0 engines were rated at 220kw (close to 300hp) and the 5.6 (342ci) somewhat more.

Initially, 5.0 litre 220kW engines had aluminium alloy heads, but post May 2001, Tickford changed to CI heads (GT40P) with Yella Terra rockers. These have a larger ratio (input to output) of 1.72:1 Compression ratio was raised to 9.4


Why fit a LS engine in a Cobra? I’m the wrong person to answer that one. The Tickford engines satisfy the required emissions requirements, as do the GM engines.


Here’s the “T” label on my engine….
Thank you for the info. Since I have never stepped foot in your great Country, I'm a bit ignorant of the history.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:15 PM
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I believe the 928s had Mercedes automatic transmissions. When Mercedes built their first automatic in the sixties or seventies they copied the GM hydromatic, so it is possible the 928 was at least half a copy of GM's finest. Of course you probably know that Rolls Royce built an aluminum block version of the chevy 366 and ran a turbo hydromatic for years.

Anyhow, there has always been a lot of copying back and forth when a mfgr comes up with an excellent product.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by olddog View Post
Thank you for the info. Since I have never stepped foot in your great Country, I'm a bit ignorant of the history.
You're welcome here any time, mate.....but not possible just at the moment

Cheers,
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chicagowil View Post
.....What I'm trying to say here is that we all get a little sideways with our point of reference and preferences. Remember we are all biased and sometimes a little too closed minded.....
You are quite correct. We all have our own biases, and we can sometimes be closed minded.
There are however many compromises we have to make, and accept on an individual basis for our Cobra builds.
There are non-negotiables that we can't change - my non-negotiables are that my only option (here in Aus.) if I want to build an FIA car is to have a semi monocoque chassis, and I must fit an "emission" engine.
The heart and soul of a car is the engine, so if I am able to fit an engine of the same family as the original 260/289 Cobras, then of course I will.

Cheers!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:41 AM
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When I started building my Cobra in 1985 there where most probably less than 10 replica Cobras in South Africa and most of them had Chevy motors. Tuning parts, motors and spares where easier and cheaper to get and prejudices of Ford vs Chevy not really very obvious (No Internet, social media or Google!!!) so I went the Chevy route with no regrets.

If I built one now I might go Ford - or maybe not.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chicagowil View Post
Though I guess some would want to disguise that the electric motor is in their car, it misses on me. If you have something else , why hide it?


If Chevy would have been of a mind to sell Shelby motors, we would all have Cobras with Chevy motors.


And as to why so many people have used Chevys in their builds for all types of cars, the SBC was a great design. It was easier to develop HP at lower costs than any other motor for years.

The SBF motors were choked with a poor head design for many years. The lower end was strong. But since it is a air pump, a poor efficiency path limited its best performance. Ford realized it with the Trans Am series. They stuck the better flowing Cleveland head on it to get better output. Where SBF motors pulled ahead is when Chevy started mucking around with the SBC and it seemed to stall out with advancement.

I always get frustrated with the idea that any thing that is a "change" for original is "wrong". Don't get me wrong, I have a real hard on for Chevy and no one was happier then me when they declared Bankruptcy. In 77 I bought a Caprice for a company car. It had the highest output motor I could get, F spec suspension and all of the options. It took 3 motors and 2 trans to get to 100k miles! Then I had a fleet of GM cars for my service reps. We could not get 7k miles on an exhaust manifold or 10k miles on front rotors. Cost my budget a lot of lost productivity dealing with breakdowns.

Then I was stupid enough to buy one of the S10 Blazers in 84. At 7 months I had 14,700 miles on it when the trans fried itself. GM would not offer me any relief. They said "you are beyond the 12k mile warranty". They wanted $1,700 for a rebuild and would give me a 3k mile warranty on the trans. I took it to AAMCO and they rebuilt it for $1,300, added a trans cooler and gave me a 1yr/12k mi warranty. I told the Western VP of Chevy (ended up with a call from him trying to get some relief) that I would never buy another GM product. He said that was my choice. I then told him that I controlled the vechile choices of my Service Reps with a crew of 45. Over the next 10 yrs I converted 63 cars from GM products to Ford or Chrysler. Who knows how many of those guys converted their personal choices to other mfg from GM since they saw superior reliability with their company cars of GM choices in the past.

My wife's cousin was a Pontiac dealer and he always gave my wife no small amount of grief when he saw her driving a Toyota. Just before GM went Bankrupt He sold his dealership back to GM to retire. GM gave him some cash, but most of the purchase price came in the form of restricted GM stock. When GM declared Bankruptcy the stock became void. Next time we saw him, he was driving a Toyota and was very bitter towards GM saying they knew they were in trouble and "stole" his dealership.

As a last "swipe" at auto advancement in design choices, when Chevy went with the transaxle with the C5 in 97 I went to the Chicago Auto Show and saw a cut-a-way of it on the floor. It turns out that one of the design engineers was at the show and saw my intense viewing of the model (I was down on all fours looking at it). He came over to ask me what I thought of it. I told him it was a pretty good cheap copy of a 1978 Porsche 928. But with all of the years since then I would have thought GM could have done better. He turned red face and asked me if I had a design background. I pointed to the cut-a-way of a Garrett turbo motor on the floor and said that the wastegate valve design in the turbo was my design while I was in College. I explained that I worked in the R&D lab for Garrett in the 70's while I was in school and I redesigned the system to correct early failures. Hid=s face got even redder and he walked away without even a "good bye".

What I'm trying to say here is that we all get a little sideways with our point of reference and preferences. Remember we are all biased and sometimes a little too closed minded. IMHO if you are not building an exact copy of a Cobra or any other classic car, you are just "Hot Rodding". Its your choice and embrace and enjoy it and every ones interpretation for their attempt to create something that they or you like! Look at my choice, I have a "stretched" Classic Roadster. I have been in original 427 Cobras, FFR, EM and ERA. At 6' 2", 220lbs and one artificial hip. So I get to enjoy the general lines of my car with accommodation.

Enjoy your cars and the creative differences we each incorporate in our builds to make each of us happy, whatever that may be!
If "ole Shell" would have put Chevy motors in a Cobra, most of us wouldn't own one. At least I surely wouldn't...
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike I View Post
Flame retardant underwear on...

I love how passionate you diehard Ford purists are...
Dude, you're engine is back to front. The distributor is in the wrong spot.


Whatever tickles your tities...


I'm a form for function type of guy.

At the time, the 427S/C evolved and developed the following, fit for purpose pieces that make it look supercool:
  • A roll bar to protect the driver,
  • Quick jacks to speed up pitstops,
  • A hood scoop to ram air into the carbs and,
  • flared guards to fit wider wheels
Now they each may have had debatable success at achieving their purpose, but they were designed for function.
They never pretended to be something other than fit for purpose.

I'm all in on electric- I'm keen to electrify my next car. Old Porsche, CJ7, VW combi or Karman ghia, whatever my kids think is cool. But i dont think I'd ever hide that electric motor with "tarnishing"... Whooops I mean garnishing.

I'd celebrate the fact it was electric.

https://youtu.be/q7vTCK9ywBA

ENJOY...
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:48 AM
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Ps. Brent - That engine you built me is a MONSTER!
Scares me every time!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 04:21 AM
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Actually there was one original Cobra that had a 351 in it. For a time Shelby had one in his own personal 289 Cobra but switched it back to the original 289 for originality. At the time he said if the 351 had been available then he would have used it for sure.

Ron
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagowil View Post

If Chevy would have been of a mind to sell Shelby motors, we would all have Cobras with Chevy motors.

And as to why so many people have used Chevys in their builds for all types of cars, the SBC was a great design. It was easier to develop HP at lower costs than any other motor for years.

The SBF motors were choked with a poor head design for many years. The lower end was strong. But since it is a air pump, a poor efficiency path limited its best performance. Ford realized it with the Trans Am series. They stuck the better flowing Cleveland head on it to get better output. Where SBF motors pulled ahead is when Chevy started mucking around with the SBC and it seemed to stall out with advancement.

!
Yes. The small block chevy has decades of winning. Although on the surface, it may not look that impressive, it works, works well. Ford had to copy Chevy to make a competitive engine. They just copied the Big Block Chevy design, with the canted valves, enlarged it a little, and whala 385 series. They downsized it a little and whala 335 series.

Pontiac took FE 427 Tunnel Port heads and put them on their V8, called Ram Air V engines, and it couldn't out perform the SBC.

Smokey Yunick experimented with multiple prototype SBC head designs, even canted valve heads, and they didn't offer much of an advantage over the standard SBC heads at that time. So, nothing was changed.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron61 View Post
Actually there was one original Cobra that had a 351 in it. For a time Shelby had one in his own personal 289 Cobra but switched it back to the original 289 for originality. At the time he said if the 351 had been available then he would have used it for sure.

Ron
351W didn't show up in production until 1968. Did Shelby have access to a pre-production 351W, or was this installed in a VERY late car that either hadn't yet received its engine or perhaps one that had destroyed a 289? What's the story on this?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Yes. The small block chevy has decades of winning. Although on the surface, it may not look that impressive, it works, works well. Ford had to copy Chevy to make a competitive engine. They just copied the Big Block Chevy design, with the canted valves, enlarged it a little, and whala 385 series. They downsized it a little and whala 335 series.

Pontiac took FE 427 Tunnel Port heads and put them on their V8, called Ram Air V engines, and it couldn't out perform the SBC.

Smokey Yunick experimented with multiple prototype SBC head designs, even canted valve heads, and they didn't offer much of an advantage over the standard SBC heads at that time. So, nothing was changed.
Yeah I’ve heard all that junk before. None of it is true.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:18 PM
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The first three reasons people use SBC's in their builds......
1. COST
2. COST
3. COST

Don't forget, most of "us" chose VHS over Beta. And it wasn't for quality.
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Old 05-15-2020, 06:30 PM
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The first three reasons people use SBC's in their builds......
1. COST
2. COST
3. COST

Don't forget, most of "us" chose VHS over Beta. And it wasn't for quality.
Same reason some use junkyard mustang drivetrains in their Cobra builds.
I thought porn decided the Videotape platform.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 06:31 PM
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It looks like I might have stirred the pot here. Was not my intent (I think).

My all time favorite quote of auto designers is for Dr. Porsche (hope I have this right).

"If I had know the 911 engine would put out so much power, I would have never wen to 2.0 liter for the design". In the 20th century, I believe he was the "pure" hot rodder. Never leave any design alone- make it n=better, faster, lighter.

Every creator, regardless of the art or discipline, always 2nd guesses themselves as to how they could have done it better, cheaper or easier.

We "brand bigots" get all sideways trying to copy the original design to hope to feel the creative genius they originally had.

My uncle was back in the 50's the premier Candy Apple Red car painter on the west coast. Won several 1st place prizes at the Oakland Roadster Show. He was so well know that when the auto paint companies tried to make Candy colors easier to paint, they came to him to test if the new paints were easier and better,

But having a family, he walked away from the custom car business and stepped into the insurance repair business. I had the joy of working with him right after High School. It was a real joy, even he was just running a Pontiac Dealership Auto Body shop. But he really missed the custom work!

Bottom line, every one of our cars are a Masterpiece! Our masterpiece- we are all "Monets". Be proud of what you create, the average Joe marvels at what you have done! And I am proud to call each and every one of you a "comrade" in this journey.

As my Grandfather once told me "even an idiot can teach you something, even if its not how to look like and idiot". Opps, I think I just proved my point!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
Here in Australia we still have a reasonable supply of SBF’s available, but for some reason that I’ve never been able to understand, more than three-quarters (my guess) of the Cobra “replicas” here are fitted with Chev engines. Most also have Tremec gearboxes in their 427s, but that’s a separate (but similar) argument, in my opinion. I'm a Toploader fan, if you hadn't already guessed.

Makes me think back a couple of years, seeing Prince Harry and new wife Meghan departing the wedding celebrations in a very nice E-Type (XKE) Jaguar, which it turns out had been fitted with an ELECTRIC MOTOR! What sacrilege!

Rant over.



Cheers,
Glen
The reason some of us had no choice in Oz was because the emission and noise levels were so restrictive that even the 5.0 late model ford wouldn’t pass, therefore the only choices were ford modular,(too wide for my car without major modifications) or the Chevy L.S.
I had a 428 CJ for it originally that was never going to even come close to passing, therefore the L.S was the only way being same dimensions as the SBF and able to pass emission testing at the time for registration.
Not long after my car was registered the authorities relaxed the requirements so the small block ford was then able to pass emissions again.

Would I change it now? Nope! It makes just on 600hp easily and I would get in and drive it to the other side of the country without hesitation...Not having a roof is the deciding factor for go or no-go

Last edited by kyleb; 05-15-2020 at 11:27 PM..
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2020, 03:26 AM
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The reason some of us had no choice in Oz was because the emission and noise levels were so restrictive that even the 5.0 late model ford wouldn’t pass....
kyleb,

What is the situation in Victoria now? I know you now have club/historic registration, so with that, do you still need to meet an emissions standard, or is it 'open season'?

Cheers,
Glen

edit: attn Mr. Dimis - any comments from you?
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Old 05-16-2020, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagowil View Post
It looks like I might have stirred the pot here. Was not my intent (I think).

My all time favorite quote of auto designers is for Dr. Porsche (hope I have this right).

"If I had know the 911 engine would put out so much power, I would have never wen to 2.0 liter for the design". In the 20th century, I believe he was the "pure" hot rodder. Never leave any design alone- make it n=better, faster, lighter.

Every creator, regardless of the art or discipline, always 2nd guesses themselves as to how they could have done it better, cheaper or easier.

We "brand bigots" get all sideways trying to copy the original design to hope to feel the creative genius they originally had.

My uncle was back in the 50's the premier Candy Apple Red car painter on the west coast. Won several 1st place prizes at the Oakland Roadster Show. He was so well know that when the auto paint companies tried to make Candy colors easier to paint, they came to him to test if the new paints were easier and better,

But having a family, he walked away from the custom car business and stepped into the insurance repair business. I had the joy of working with him right after High School. It was a real joy, even he was just running a Pontiac Dealership Auto Body shop. But he really missed the custom work!

Bottom line, every one of our cars are a Masterpiece! Our masterpiece- we are all "Monets". Be proud of what you create, the average Joe marvels at what you have done! And I am proud to call each and every one of you a "comrade" in this journey.

As my Grandfather once told me "even an idiot can teach you something, even if its not how to look like and idiot". Opps, I think I just proved my point!
Back in the 60's, drag racers, especially west coast racers, loved that color. And so did I.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2020, 08:55 AM
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Be ware of those who decide what is best, in their mind (often best for them), and then want to pass a law to force everyone to do it their way. People are free to do what they want. Well at least they should be. In theory they are, but then there is reality. I've digressed again.

There is a thing called having some respect for history, tradition, icons, and yes even a deity you may not believe in.

I was in a monastery that records on it date back to the 5th century, built by the Romans. Inside Saint Odile lays in a stone sarcophagus. Deeply religious people come there on a pilgrimage. You cannot help but feel how special this place is. Yet there were young people walking around running there mouths, acting foolish, and mocking the place.

I have also toured Cathedrals and the priest would have to remind people that they are in a place of warship and to quiet down and act with respect. I have seen certain crowds have to be told several times.

This is caused by raising generations of children telling them that they are free to do anything they want, they cannot be punished, and anyone who would judge them is a bigot.

My issue goes much beyond cars. Yes you should not stick a ford engine into a 1969 Hemi Cuda, or a SBC in a Cobra, if possible to do the right thing. But for me it's about having some respect for what something is or was or stood for. The people who are mindless about doing so are annoying. Those in intentionally do these things just to piss off the traditionalist or mom and dad, I especially have issue.

I have held my tongue, as part of the silent majority, for a lifetime. I'm done holding my tongue. You can do whatever you wish, but no I do not have to agree. I do not have to praise you. I can tell you exactly what I think. It's about time some people learn there are consequences, and I do not have to support them. It is not all about what they think. I am allowed to think too.

In short, I just think people should have some respect for history.
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