How do we get a company to make good tires for a Cobra?

[hinoonaz]

Either the cooper cobra or mickey thompson st's for the tread look, i like my SR's.. Of course we are talking about 15 inch tires and can handle the rain. I have been in he rain many times and do not push it in any way on the SR's just to be safe. Why can't a manufacturer take the above tires and change the compound for a stickier tire. Plenty of options for 17 inch tires so why not. A 2 or 300 UTQG would be great for the street. My understand on Avons is they do not last very long and age faster 10 to 15K . I really do like the billboard look for sure. Go to a large Cobra get together and see their choice. Every once in a while billboard or Avon show up in 15 inch tires. I will probably go with ST's or Nitto on 17 inch rims which will solve problem and sell 15 inch rims and less than Avons and new rims to boot. Stencil Goodyear is an option though difficult to get the right patina.
Goodyear now own Cooper and MT so make the tires stickier. Already have the molds. Just need to get to the right person. If i only drove 1500 miles a year who cares. I am now 5000 minimum so rain will be possible. My 2 cents!

[Hotoxide]

Let us say that a tire company makes a 15 inch "cobra" tire. If it has superior performance it will own the market. But what if the reviews are mixed or worse? Are companies willing to take the risk?

Dave and SNAKE65 - rolling on Coopers

[jknich]

Another brand in Cobra sizes:

https://www.milestartires.com/passen...s/streetsteel/

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Hotoxide

Let us say that a tire company makes a 15 inch "cobra" tire. If it has superior performance it will own the market. But what if the reviews are mixed or worse? Are companies willing to take the risk?

Dave and SNAKE65 - rolling on Coopers

And especially since "owning the market" isn't more than a couple of hundred tires a year.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

And especially since "owning the market" isn't more than a couple of hundred tires a year.

Most likely less than that and the buyers are always looking for a less than Walmart price point for an Avon class tire.

Golly, I wonder why there is no interest on the part of tire manufacturers.


Ed

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by jknich

Another brand in Cobra sizes:

https://www.milestartires.com/passen...s/streetsteel/

Yes, but only S and T speed ratings.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Yes, but only S and T speed ratings.

You bring up an excellent point...

In the search for a tire for any performance vehicle you have to trade:

1. Dry/wet performance
2. Speed rating (street vs track)
3. Mileage expectation.

The Ford GT tires (which I had an early generation of on my Cobra and the subsequent generation on the GT500s) was a compromise tire. The Ford GT manual was silent, but the GT500 manual cautioned that they were for use over 50*F. They were horrible in cold weather and on cold pavement. On the other hand the tires would last a lifetime of miles - 40-50K. As they aged they got worse. Some people reported that as a track tire they had pretty good performance.

I replaced mine with Bridgestones which originated with a class of Porsche and Bugatti tires). They were really "sticky" and performed well in cold conditions. (Still, not what you'd get from an all season street tire). The down side of that performance is that the tires wore out in about 5000 miles. I also got real nervous on wet pavement (never hit "the limit").

So what do you want? Good performance on the track or a 50K mile street tire? Wet vs dry? (Remember, racing teams use two sets of tires.)

The point here is that even if someone started making tires, they will really only meet the expectations of about 1/3 of the population...

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

You bring up an excellent point...

In the search for a tire for any performance vehicle you have to trade:

1. Dry/wet performance
2. Speed rating (street vs track)
3. Mileage expectation.

The Ford GT tires (which I had an early generation of on my Cobra and the subsequent generation on the GT500s) was a compromise tire. The Ford GT manual was silent, but the GT500 manual cautioned that they were for use over 50*F. They were horrible in cold weather and on cold pavement. On the other hand the tires would last a lifetime of miles - 40-50K. As they aged they got worse. Some people reported that as a track tire they had pretty good performance.

I replaced mine with Bridgestones which originated with a class of Porsche and Bugatti tires). They were really "sticky" and performed well in cold conditions. (Still, not what you'd get from an all season street tire). The down side of that performance is that the tires wore out in about 5000 miles. I also got real nervous on wet pavement (never hit "the limit").

So what do you want? Good performance on the track or a 50K mile street tire? Wet vs dry? (Remember, racing teams use two sets of tires.)

The point here is that even if someone started making tires, they will really only meet the expectations of about 1/3 of the population...

While there are always outliers, I think the way these cars are typically used is on the street in warm dry weather. Very few guys, I would think, take a 90" wheelbased, vastly overpowered (usually) non-top equipped roadster out intentionally on a rainy day. Sure, we can occasionally get caught out in the rain, but I doubt that most guys are looking for 15" rain tires for their Cobra. Likewise, guys who regularly track their cars most likely aren't using 15's to do so.
I think what most guys are looking for is a high quality, good handling, reasonably priced 15" tire. A tire that fits all those three criteria simply doesn't exist today. There is no way that the rediculously priced Avon can be called reasonably priced. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S for example, which is a VASTLY superior tire to the Avon, is between $300-$370 per tire in 19" size, as compared to $400+ each for the 15" Avon that fits our cars. Of course we can't use the 19" on our Cobra's (typically) and even if 19" wheels are available (?) many don't want that look. Of course the pricing for both those example tires reflects the much higher sales potential and volume of the 19" tire. I use that example only to illustrate the enormous difference in the performance and price of the typical performance and price of todays tires vs. the "best of a bad lot" Avons.
Obviously Avon isn't selling lots of these tires, yet they still choose to make them. Goodyear isn't selling boatloads of Billboards, yet they still choose to make them. There has to be a reason why. I don't know what that reason is. Point being, if Goodyear and Avon choose to build tires that are not high volume sellers, is there not a reasonable chance that someone (BFG? M/T - Cooper?) that already has 15" molds and technology available, and a network in place to manufacture and sell 15" tires, can be persuaded to either manufacture a new tire or upgrade an existing tire that'll offer us decent performance without pricing that exceeds the price of current state of the art tires for modern performance cars?

[NROTOXIN]

"Is there not a reasonable chance that someone (BFG? M/T - Cooper?) that already has 15" molds and technology available, and a network in place to manufacture and sell 15" tires, can be persuaded to either manufacture a new tire or upgrade an existing tire that'll offer us decent performance without pricing that exceeds the price of current state of the art tires for modern performance cars?"

Cooper Tires is already in the game with Avons and the price is what their volume dictates.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by NROTOXIN

"Is there not a reasonable chance that someone (BFG? M/T - Cooper?) that already has 15" molds and technology available, and a network in place to manufacture and sell 15" tires, can be persuaded to either manufacture a new tire or upgrade an existing tire that'll offer us decent performance without pricing that exceeds the price of current state of the art tires for modern performance cars?"

Cooper Tires is already in the game with Avons and the price is what their volume dictates.

And to state it another way: The bean counters at the majors aren't deliberately over looking a gold mine in the Cobra space. Trust me, if they knew there was money to be made, they'd be making money.

You won't convince someone to enter the market with a new product because stealing market segment is impossible and at best leaves two suppliers with inadequate volume for either to survive.

Your best bet is to convince one of the existing suppliers that their offering is inadequate and that they could sell lots more if they replaced "Tire X" with "Tire Y". And, it's not enough to switch X to Y, the business argument has to be X+Y. For this you'll need data.

Of course, you could try to persuade a new entrant that they could get all of X, and then some, with their Y, but then you'd have to ask, what marketing department was asleep at the wheel and didn't already think/know of that?

[NROTOXIN]

You keep stating the obvious, my only comment was at the bottom of my post.

[Danr55]

I believe that it would be an excellent idea if we all agreed what was a "good tire" for our cars. Defined by size, compound, aesthetics, etc/ What we want and what we don't want.. That is where I believe the rub will be found.

I believe for any Shelby product or replica, Goodyear will be the preferred signage.. If they would bring back the Eagle II in the appropriate size, I would be completely satisfied.

[CSX2345]

Another option: blockleytyre.com.

They produce modern radials with a period correct look for Aston Martins, Ferraris and Jaguars. Website shows availability for 289 street Cobras, so they may be open to requests for larger 427 SC sizes.

Cheers

[eschaider]

The biggest 15 inch tire their search engine brought up was a 205 x 70 x 15 which would be inadequate even on the fronts.

I don't understand the problem we are wringing our hands over here. There are perfectly good Avons immediately available and they are a high quality solution to the tire problem.

If you don't like the Avon pricing then go upscale in the rims and tires department until you find an approximation of the look price and performance you are looking for. Chances are you will spend the same amount of money ...

If the complaint is price and that's what it sounds like, then you have picked a hobby and a hobby car that you are progressively unable to financially support. If that is the case, then it's time to look for a more affordable toy.


Ed

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by eschaider

The biggest 15 inch tire their search engine brought up was a 205 x 70 x 15 which would be inadequate even on the fronts.

I don't understand the problem we are wringing our hands over here. There are perfectly good Avons immediately available and they are a high quality solution to the tire problem.

If you don't like the Avon pricing then go upscale in the rims and tires department until you find an approximation of the look price and performance you are looking for. Chances are you will spend the same amount of money ...

If the complaint is price and that's what it sounds like, then you have picked a hobby and a hobby car that you are progressively unable to financially support. If that is the case, then it's time to look for a more affordable toy.


Ed

It has NOTHING to do with what I or anyone else on this site can afford. Your statement on that drips with ignorant arrogance. The fact is that this Cobra community is the only car owners group that buys the Avon because in reality it's a marginal tire that just happens to be the best of a very bad group and for what it is it's insanely overpriced. It has nothing to do with whatever anyone on here can afford. It's about not overpaying for marginal performance and trying to get better performance at a price commensurate with that improved performance level. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Moriarty]

-Lastly, we have the Avons. Lots of you hate to hear this, but they are NOT good tires. No one really uses them but us, because they're just reasonably good, essentially marginal tires, but at a super premium price. No other performance vehicle owner who has another reasonable choice uses them. They're just not very good, they're simply the best available of a bad group. Porsches, Camaros, Vettes, BMW's, etc - no one uses them! You can get Michelins, Bridgestones, Nittos, Pirellis, Hankooks, Toyo's and the list goes on for these cars for half the price of Avons and get a tire that's state of the art, likely twice as good. The price they charge for these Avon's is laughable.

I’d be perfectly happy with a more affordable Avon. Do we know why they cost what they do? Is it because they are the best available - effectively holding the position of this new perfect tire you’re hoping to have built? Is it possible to build something better, or would it just optimize different trade offs? Are those state of the art tires listed above in 15”? Is perhaps that responsible for the difference in performance?

[RUFdriver]

Another option, get some 17 or 18” rims, there are lots of great tire choices for track or street. Save the 15” billboards for the car show.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

I’d be perfectly happy with a more affordable Avon. Do we know why they cost what they do? Is it because they are the best available - effectively holding the position of this new perfect tire you’re hoping to have built? Is it possible to build something better, or would it just optimize different trade offs? Are those state of the art tires listed above in 15”? Is perhaps that responsible for the difference in performance?

As many have pointed out, the Cobra tire market is a limited market. Avon can charge whatever they want. They choose to charge this. I doubt that this tire is keeping Avon afloat, it's probably a drop in the bucket to them, and they probably wouldn't break a sweat if no one bought another. It's not a question of building the "perfect" tire. A good tire at a reasonable price would be fine. The Avon is unquesionably a decent tire. The problem is that it's a decent tire at a super premium tire price. I don't know offhand what the M/T's cost, lets say for arguments sake $160 each. The Avon is a better tire than the M/T. If the Avon was $200 or so it would be a no brainer. For $400, it's insane. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires are less than $400 and they are a tremendously superior tire to the Avon's.

Going to a larger diameter wheel opens up the maket available with regard to tires that are far superior to the Avon's, at about half the price. However you have to be willing to compromise on the looks. That's all up to the individual owner. All I am saying is that it would be nice to have a tire that is better than what's available at a price commensurate with the quality and performance of the tire, more in line with the existing tire market for more modern cars. We obviously have a more limited market and have to expect to pay more for that. However paying more than double is simply abusive and opportunistic, and that has nothing at all with what each individual owner can or can't afford. I don't care how much money a guy has or doesn't have - no one likes getting boned.

[NROTOXIN]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

It has NOTHING to do with what I or anyone else on this site can afford. Your statement on that drips with ignorant arrogance. The fact is that this Cobra community is the only car owners group that buys the Avon because in reality it's a marginal tire that just happens to be the best of a very bad group and for what it is it's insanely overpriced. It has nothing to do with whatever anyone on here can afford. It's about not overpaying for marginal performance and trying to get better performance at a price commensurate with that improved performance level. Nothing more and nothing less.

"Insanely Overpriced", "Over Paying", "Performance at a Price"......but it's not about the price.

767, "marginal Performance"....what are you comparing the Avon against, PERFORMANCE WISE? Do you have any data that suggests this is a subpar performance tire or is it "I think, I believe, "in my own opinion"

[Sycraft]

just give me tires that can last 5000 miles, fairly inexpensive and v or z rated. plus they have to roll good and handle ok, wet traction a plus but not required. That's not too much to ask lol....1000 a set would be ok, Avons are almost double that. If they were around 1250 a set, they would be perfect.