How do we get a company to make good tires for a Cobra?

[Moriarty]

-Lastly, we have the Avons. Lots of you hate to hear this, but they are NOT good tires. No one really uses them but us, because they're just reasonably good, essentially marginal tires, but at a super premium price. No other performance vehicle owner who has another reasonable choice uses them. They're just not very good, they're simply the best available of a bad group. Porsches, Camaros, Vettes, BMW's, etc - no one uses them! You can get Michelins, Bridgestones, Nittos, Pirellis, Hankooks, Toyo's and the list goes on for these cars for half the price of Avons and get a tire that's state of the art, likely twice as good. The price they charge for these Avon's is laughable.

I’d be perfectly happy with a more affordable Avon. Do we know why they cost what they do? Is it because they are the best available - effectively holding the position of this new perfect tire you’re hoping to have built? Is it possible to build something better, or would it just optimize different trade offs? Are those state of the art tires listed above in 15”? Is perhaps that responsible for the difference in performance?

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

I’d be perfectly happy with a more affordable Avon. Do we know why they cost what they do? Is it because they are the best available - effectively holding the position of this new perfect tire you’re hoping to have built? Is it possible to build something better, or would it just optimize different trade offs? Are those state of the art tires listed above in 15”? Is perhaps that responsible for the difference in performance?

As many have pointed out, the Cobra tire market is a limited market. Avon can charge whatever they want. They choose to charge this. I doubt that this tire is keeping Avon afloat, it's probably a drop in the bucket to them, and they probably wouldn't break a sweat if no one bought another. It's not a question of building the "perfect" tire. A good tire at a reasonable price would be fine. The Avon is unquesionably a decent tire. The problem is that it's a decent tire at a super premium tire price. I don't know offhand what the M/T's cost, lets say for arguments sake $160 each. The Avon is a better tire than the M/T. If the Avon was $200 or so it would be a no brainer. For $400, it's insane. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires are less than $400 and they are a tremendously superior tire to the Avon's.

Going to a larger diameter wheel opens up the maket available with regard to tires that are far superior to the Avon's, at about half the price. However you have to be willing to compromise on the looks. That's all up to the individual owner. All I am saying is that it would be nice to have a tire that is better than what's available at a price commensurate with the quality and performance of the tire, more in line with the existing tire market for more modern cars. We obviously have a more limited market and have to expect to pay more for that. However paying more than double is simply abusive and opportunistic, and that has nothing at all with what each individual owner can or can't afford. I don't care how much money a guy has or doesn't have - no one likes getting boned.

[RUFdriver]

Another option, get some 17 or 18” rims, there are lots of great tire choices for track or street. Save the 15” billboards for the car show.

[Sycraft]

just give me tires that can last 5000 miles, fairly inexpensive and v or z rated. plus they have to roll good and handle ok, wet traction a plus but not required. That's not too much to ask lol....1000 a set would be ok, Avons are almost double that. If they were around 1250 a set, they would be perfect.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Sycraft

just give me tires that can last 5000 miles, fairly inexpensive and v or z rated. plus they have to roll good and handle ok, wet traction a plus but not required. That's not too much to ask lol....1000 a set would be ok, Avons are almost double that. If they were around 1250 a set, they would be perfect.

Back to the original subject.

The above is the first "spec" for the tire I've seen. There are other characteristics that others would deem essential, and it would take another dozen or so to establish the top 3.

And this shopping list is precisely why there is no "ideal" tire. In the realm of "supercar" tires, which is what people are looking for, there is no tire that meets all of those criteria, regardless of what vehicle it's intended for.

In the old project management metrics language: Cost, Quality, Performance: Choose 2. (You will often see Schedule in the mix.)

Manufacturers priorities the items in the list and optimize 2 or three of them. Everyone has a different mix of what they optimize. That is why everyone perceives there are too many non-optimal solutions.

But in the Cobra space, "appearance" seems to rank high. Everyone wants the tires to look like Billboards, but in all other aspects, billboards suck.

[Sycraft]

I love the Avon specs, actually almost bought them.. but I needed tires asap and they were still a few weeks away. Plus I could by my Corvette tires for less than a set of avons.. maybe next time

[767Jockey]

Never mind. Good night.

[MJJ]

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

[Sycraft]

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

But I can perform the labor and do the work, I cannot build a tire... Plus I did not buy a Ferrari. Main issue is that we need more choices, the limited choices we have do a few things well, Cheap, Handle Well, Look Good- pick 2 lol

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

Or the tires for a Bugatti Veyron.

When I bought the Bridgestones for my Ford GT in 2011 they cost less than a set of tires for my truck.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Not at all, Ed. It's statements like this that are arrogant and ignorant. Likewise, I have seen you do much better than stooping to this. The fact that one rejects the notion pf paying twice the price for half the product doesn't necessarily mean that they are over their heads financially, whether it's me or anyone else. Sometimes it's just common sense. If you'd like to pay $400 for a tire that is not nearly as good as most $225 tires in more readily available sizes, have at it.

As cars (and replica's) age the cost to maintain them changes, typically increasing. What was affordable 20 years ago may be less so today.

MJJ hit the nail on the head when he said.

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

There are several important points he is making.

First he is recognizing the visual signature appearance of the 15 inch tire as opposed to a larger diameter, lower profile, better handling tire — that might also cost less than or equal to the 15" tire but significantly outperform it.

Unless you are racing the car, the ultimate performance tire is not what you are looking for 99% of the time and we know that by just looking at what owners buy for their cars. It is the 15" tire variants invariably.

Second he is recognizing the escalating cost of maintaining an original and to a lesser extent a replica. As he so accurately points out, the cost of the Avon tire can amount to little more than a rounding error for the required maintenance on some historical vehicles.

As the cost of maintaining your replica rises everyone eventually reaches a point where they say enough is enough and with, usually a fair amount of sadness, sell their toy.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

As for Avon's I'm certainly not on a one man crusade to banish them. I couldn't care less who buys them. The fact is the only group that I have ever seen buy them as a preference to other brands is our Cobra group. If they were any good, than better handling cars such as Porsches, Vettes, BMW's, Lambos, Ferrari's and so on would use them. I have yet to see a single one of these cars use Avon's. Why? Because there are much better tires available in their size.

The answer is not what you are suggesting. The answer is what MJJ suggested.

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15" tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

There is a widely held and understandable preference for a DOT listed 15" radial tire that visually resembles the original Billboards without their twitchiness. This is a specially sized, specialty tire that most manufacturers do not offer today. Avon does. That alone makes them pricey..

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

We use them because, again, they're the best of a bad lot in our size, yet that doesn't make them good. If they were in fact good everyone would use them. Few do when they have another choice. I would simply like to see us have a better choice. I thought that perhaps others would see the benefit in trying to rectify the situation rather than succumbing to it. I see little support for that here, and that's fine. That's it.

You can't logically have both sides of the same argument. Either they are or are not and then pick your argument. After lines up you said,

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

If they were any good, than better handling cars such as Porsches, Vettes, BMW's, Lambos, Ferrari's and so on would use them.

You are missing it again. They are bought because they are the best performing 15" tire that does a reasonably good job at mimicking the Billboard look. It has nothing to do with modern performance cars it has to do with replicationg the Billboard appearance in a DOT listed tire that handles well for a 15" tire.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I doubt that the Avon ranks at the top compared to many, if any at all, of these ...

Again that is not the focus of the tire manufacturer or most buyers. If it were to happen that is great, if not that is also great. If you track your car, chances are you have large diameter low profile racing tires with a racing compound for the rubber.

Here we go jumping over the fence again taking the other side of the argument.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

... In 15" there isn't. I posted that to show all the superior tires to the Avon at significantly lower prices. The fact that there are really few choices in 15" is the only reason people pay the high price for Avons. They're way overpriced for what you get. ....

Can you see the inconsistency?

You actually recognize MJJ's point and that of the many of us who have bought AVON's — In the 15 inch space they are very likely the best choice to replicate and appearance we have available. A nice side bonus is they are very likely the best performing 15" tire available.

Now, as soon as you are prepared to step away from the 15" tire style all kinds of new opportunities open up, again at different price points. But, if you want that original look you are in a 15 inch world at elevated pricing — sort of a similar experience to what MJJ was saying.

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

Ed

[PDUB]

I don't know where you guys are shopping for tyres, but $400 for the Avons would be a pretty good price. Roger has them for, "295/50VR15 $508.00" plus the freight. That is the going rate, though.

I agree with the Pilot - that is a ridiculous price for what you get. These are made in the UK and imported. But, as has been said, it is likely the small market and exclusive distributorships that dictate the exorbitant prices... that and it is designed as a road-race tyre.

I am unable to say whether they are good or bad, performance-wise. Most of the guys that run them swear by them!

[hinoonaz]

Just make an 15 inch Mickey thompson ST in a 200 compound with billboard stencilling and be done with it.

[Sycraft]

Originally Posted by hinoonaz

Just make an 15 inch Mickey thompson ST in a 200 compound with billboard stencilling and be done with it.

Need at least an H rating, no stencil and round....

[patrickt]

You know that to officially get the speed rating they run it for an hour at the target speed in a room heated to 100 degrees. I don't think I could even drive the damn car for an hour at 100 degrees without passing out. Any of our tires that can still hold air are probably good for quick blasts to 140 or so, which is all you can really hit safely on the street anyway (not that it's safe to do that though).