How do we get a company to make good tires for a Cobra?

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

It has NOTHING to do with what I or anyone else on this site can afford. Your statement on that drips with ignorant arrogance. The fact is that this Cobra community is the only car owners group that buys the Avon because in reality it's a marginal tire that just happens to be the best of a very bad group and for what it is it's insanely overpriced. It has nothing to do with whatever anyone on here can afford. It's about not overpaying for marginal performance and trying to get better performance at a price commensurate with that improved performance level. Nothing more and nothing less.

A little sensitivity here 767Jockey? A casual reading of the posts in this thread have pricing as a recurring complaint, in particular for Avons.

Your personal attacks in response to someone else touching on what is apparently a sensitive issue for you adds no value to the discussion. If you have factual commentary it is certainly welcome. Personal attacks are the refuge of those who have no credible logical argument to table supporting their position.

If for argument's sake we accept your representation that AVONs in fact are marginal tires, that doesn't alter the fact that they are the best of the marginal or even sub marginal tires offered for our cars. It's sort or like saying the air is only marginally more than 20% oxygen. So what, that is adequate for us to breathe and not suffocate — same story for the tires.

With respect to overpriced, well that is relative isn't it now. If you are looking for any alternatives for the performance (which you evaluate as substandard) surprise, surprise they do not exist. Sooo, how much is that performance worth to the owner of the car?

For some people the price is simply not worth the performance and they don't buy them. For others it is and they do buy them. The casual bystander might read your commentary as the tires are not worth it to you. Your call, and you are entitled to it.

Disparaging commentary about the products pricing because you think it is overpriced is certainly your prerogative but again, to a casual observer it probably looks like sour grapes or yet another cheap shot.

Avon did not need to nor have to make tires for these cars. They chose to. I think it is an easy reach to say they are not a significant contributor to the firm's bottom line. In fact they are probably a push at best.

If that is true, and that certainly remains to be proven, that means they produced the tires for another reason and I suspect priced them to break even for the firm because profit was not the motivation.

We are back to a very small market, looking for a high performance component, with fairly high sunk costs to put into production. Some of the members of this group eschews a decent and at the current time best offering for their use while complaining about what is very likely a break even pricing model.

Now does something seem a little arrogant about your attitude and that type of behavior ... ?

I know you can do better because I have observed you doing better. If you have a good rational agument against what AVON is doing for us, table it and lets take a look.

Cheap shots, I have believed, were beneath you. I still think I am right and this was probably just a bad day. Am I right?


Ed

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by eschaider

If the complaint is price and that's what it sounds like, then you have picked a hobby and a hobby car that you are progressively unable to financially support. If that is the case, then it's time to look for a more affordable toy.
Ed

Not at all, Ed. It's statements like this that are arrogant and ignorant. Likewise, I have seen you do much better than stooping to this. The fact that one rejects the notion pf paying twice the price for half the product doesn't necessarily mean that they are over their heads financially, whether it's me or anyone else. Sometimes it's just common sense. If you'd like to pay $400 for a tire that is not nearly as good as most $225 tires in more readily available sizes, have at it.

As for Avon's I'm certainly not on a one man crusade to banish them. I couldn't care less who buys them. The fact is the only group that I have ever seen buy them as a preference to other brands is our Cobra group. If they were any good, than better handling cars such as Porsches, Vettes, BMW's, Lambos, Ferrari's and so on would use them. I have yet to see a single one of these cars use Avon's. Why? Because there are much better tires available in their size. We use them because, again, they're the best of a bad lot in our size, yet that doesn't make them good. If they were in fact good everyone would use them. Few do when they have another choice. I would simply like to see us have a better choice. I thought that perhaps others would see the benefit in trying to rectify the situation rather than succumbing to it. I see little support for that here, and that's fine. That's it.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Sycraft

just give me tires that can last 5000 miles, fairly inexpensive and v or z rated. plus they have to roll good and handle ok, wet traction a plus but not required. That's not too much to ask lol....1000 a set would be ok, Avons are almost double that. If they were around 1250 a set, they would be perfect.

Back to the original subject.

The above is the first "spec" for the tire I've seen. There are other characteristics that others would deem essential, and it would take another dozen or so to establish the top 3.

And this shopping list is precisely why there is no "ideal" tire. In the realm of "supercar" tires, which is what people are looking for, there is no tire that meets all of those criteria, regardless of what vehicle it's intended for.

In the old project management metrics language: Cost, Quality, Performance: Choose 2. (You will often see Schedule in the mix.)

Manufacturers priorities the items in the list and optimize 2 or three of them. Everyone has a different mix of what they optimize. That is why everyone perceives there are too many non-optimal solutions.

But in the Cobra space, "appearance" seems to rank high. Everyone wants the tires to look like Billboards, but in all other aspects, billboards suck.

[NROTOXIN]

AVON CR6ZZ:
DOT Marked
Tread Wear 80
Traction A
Temperature A
Speed Rating V

Post your tire specs to compare

$10 at McDonald's will fill me up just as much as a $50 cowboy ribeye dinner.....But, I'll spend the extra $$ for the QUALITY.

[patrickt]

From the stickers off my new Mickey Thompson S/T

235-60/15
Treadwear 440
Traction A
Temperature B

295-50/15
Treadwear 440
Traction A
Temperature C

[767Jockey]

I doubt that the Avon ranks at the top compared to many, if any at all, of these.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireS...earDiameter=17

EDIT - Look, if anyone wants to buy the $400 each Avon's, by all means have a party, go for it. It's a $400 tire that is simply matched or exceeded in performance by a raft of others for far less money spent. The only reason anyone here buys it is because there is nothing presently to match it for our cars. Find me one modern sports car that has them mounted. I have never seen one. It's not a terrible tire. However it's not state of the art, and it is not priced accordingly with it's so-so performance. It's priced exhorbitantly high. I am not saying at all that it is not the best tire available to us. It clearly is. However, the price is crazy for what you get. If a Michelin PS2, a Nitto, a Pirelli, a Conti, etc were available at $225 - $300 each, would anyone buy the Avon at $400 each? Hell no, and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with not being able to afford the tires or being able to afford a Cobra. It's just about not wanting to pay super premium prices for a less than super premium product. My original idea was to see if there was a way to perhaps convince another manufacturer to correct this situation. Clearly there isn't much appetite amongst the group to attempt that. That's fine, carry on. No harm no foul. It was just an idea. Disregard.

[NROTOXIN]

Ah, we're talking about 15" here.....unless you think the tires on your link will shrink to fit.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by NROTOXIN

Ah, we're talking about 15" here.....unless you think the tires on your link will shrink to fit.

Why do my MTs have the same traction rating as the Avons? That doesn't sound right.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by NROTOXIN

Ah, we're talking about 15" here.....unless you think the tires on your link will shrink to fit.

That's exactly the point. In larger diameters there's lots of choices. In 15" there isn't. I posted that to show all the superior tires to the Avon at significantly lower prices. The fact that there are really few choices in 15" is the only reason people pay the high price for Avons. They're way overpriced for what you get. The link is designed to show what's available for far less for more commonly used tire sizes. The Avon's sell only because there's few other alternatives in our 15" size. If any of those linked tires were available in 15" at similar prices, it's likely Avon wouldn't sell another tire. Certainly not at $400 per. My original post was in seeking a way to perhaps try to correct the availability situation in modern, fairly priced tires for our cars. Obviously not many are interested in pursuing that. Fair enough.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Why do my MTs have the same traction rating as the Avons? That doesn't sound right.

Patrick, I think perhaps the numbers don't reliably convey performance and feel?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Patrick, I think perhaps the numbers don't reliably convey performance and feel?

Well if that's the grading criteria then I could get an A+ in advanced astro-physics.

[Sycraft]

I love the Avon specs, actually almost bought them.. but I needed tires asap and they were still a few weeks away. Plus I could by my Corvette tires for less than a set of avons.. maybe next time

[NROTOXIN]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

That's exactly the point. In larger diameters there's lots of choices. In 15" there isn't. I posted that to show all the superior tires to the Avon at significantly lower prices. The fact that there are really few choices in 15" is the only reason people pay the high price for Avons. They're way overpriced for what you get. The link is designed to show what's available for far less for more commonly used tire sizes. The Avon's sell only because there's few other alternatives in our 15" size. If any of those linked tires were available in 15" at similar prices, it's likely Avon wouldn't sell another tire. Certainly not at $400 per. My original post was in seeking a way to perhaps try to correct the availability situation in modern, fairly priced tires for our cars. Obviously not many are interested in pursuing that. Fair enough.

McDonald's is significantly lower than a cowboy ribeye dinner....your once again utilizing price in your equation. You go ahead and buy 8 tires to the AVON 4 if that makes you feel any better.

[767Jockey]

Never mind. Good night.

[MJJ]

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

[Sycraft]

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

But I can perform the labor and do the work, I cannot build a tire... Plus I did not buy a Ferrari. Main issue is that we need more choices, the limited choices we have do a few things well, Cheap, Handle Well, Look Good- pick 2 lol

[PDUB]

I don't know where you guys are shopping for tyres, but $400 for the Avons would be a pretty good price. Roger has them for, "295/50VR15 $508.00" plus the freight. That is the going rate, though.

I agree with the Pilot - that is a ridiculous price for what you get. These are made in the UK and imported. But, as has been said, it is likely the small market and exclusive distributorships that dictate the exorbitant prices... that and it is designed as a road-race tyre.

I am unable to say whether they are good or bad, performance-wise. Most of the guys that run them swear by them!

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

Or the tires for a Bugatti Veyron.

When I bought the Bridgestones for my Ford GT in 2011 they cost less than a set of tires for my truck.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Not at all, Ed. It's statements like this that are arrogant and ignorant. Likewise, I have seen you do much better than stooping to this. The fact that one rejects the notion pf paying twice the price for half the product doesn't necessarily mean that they are over their heads financially, whether it's me or anyone else. Sometimes it's just common sense. If you'd like to pay $400 for a tire that is not nearly as good as most $225 tires in more readily available sizes, have at it.

As cars (and replica's) age the cost to maintain them changes, typically increasing. What was affordable 20 years ago may be less so today.

MJJ hit the nail on the head when he said.

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

There are several important points he is making.

First he is recognizing the visual signature appearance of the 15 inch tire as opposed to a larger diameter, lower profile, better handling tire — that might also cost less than or equal to the 15" tire but significantly outperform it.

Unless you are racing the car, the ultimate performance tire is not what you are looking for 99% of the time and we know that by just looking at what owners buy for their cars. It is the 15" tire variants invariably.

Second he is recognizing the escalating cost of maintaining an original and to a lesser extent a replica. As he so accurately points out, the cost of the Avon tire can amount to little more than a rounding error for the required maintenance on some historical vehicles.

As the cost of maintaining your replica rises everyone eventually reaches a point where they say enough is enough and with, usually a fair amount of sadness, sell their toy.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

As for Avon's I'm certainly not on a one man crusade to banish them. I couldn't care less who buys them. The fact is the only group that I have ever seen buy them as a preference to other brands is our Cobra group. If they were any good, than better handling cars such as Porsches, Vettes, BMW's, Lambos, Ferrari's and so on would use them. I have yet to see a single one of these cars use Avon's. Why? Because there are much better tires available in their size.

The answer is not what you are suggesting. The answer is what MJJ suggested.

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15" tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

There is a widely held and understandable preference for a DOT listed 15" radial tire that visually resembles the original Billboards without their twitchiness. This is a specially sized, specialty tire that most manufacturers do not offer today. Avon does. That alone makes them pricey..

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

We use them because, again, they're the best of a bad lot in our size, yet that doesn't make them good. If they were in fact good everyone would use them. Few do when they have another choice. I would simply like to see us have a better choice. I thought that perhaps others would see the benefit in trying to rectify the situation rather than succumbing to it. I see little support for that here, and that's fine. That's it.

You can't logically have both sides of the same argument. Either they are or are not and then pick your argument. After lines up you said,

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

If they were any good, than better handling cars such as Porsches, Vettes, BMW's, Lambos, Ferrari's and so on would use them.

You are missing it again. They are bought because they are the best performing 15" tire that does a reasonably good job at mimicking the Billboard look. It has nothing to do with modern performance cars it has to do with replicationg the Billboard appearance in a DOT listed tire that handles well for a 15" tire.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I doubt that the Avon ranks at the top compared to many, if any at all, of these ...

Again that is not the focus of the tire manufacturer or most buyers. If it were to happen that is great, if not that is also great. If you track your car, chances are you have large diameter low profile racing tires with a racing compound for the rubber.

Here we go jumping over the fence again taking the other side of the argument.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

... In 15" there isn't. I posted that to show all the superior tires to the Avon at significantly lower prices. The fact that there are really few choices in 15" is the only reason people pay the high price for Avons. They're way overpriced for what you get. ....

Can you see the inconsistency?

You actually recognize MJJ's point and that of the many of us who have bought AVON's — In the 15 inch space they are very likely the best choice to replicate and appearance we have available. A nice side bonus is they are very likely the best performing 15" tire available.

Now, as soon as you are prepared to step away from the 15" tire style all kinds of new opportunities open up, again at different price points. But, if you want that original look you are in a 15 inch world at elevated pricing — sort of a similar experience to what MJJ was saying.

Originally Posted by MJJ

I would rather have the look of a decent performing 15 tire than the cutting edge performance of an 18” tire.

For those complaining about the cost of Avon’s, Just be thankful you don’t own an older Ferrari that requires engine out service every 3-4 years. Avon’s are a rounding error compared to something like that.

Ed

[hinoonaz]

Just make an 15 inch Mickey thompson ST in a 200 compound with billboard stencilling and be done with it.