How do we get a company to make good tires for a Cobra?

[767Jockey]

I'm sitting here thinking about 15" tires for the Cobra. Our choices are limited, with some better than others, and none of them great. We all write and talk about the issue ad nauseum, but I wonder what if there's anything we can do about it?

The question becomes, is the number of Cobras out there sufficient to entice a manufacturer, large or small, to produce a high quality, high performance, commonly used Cobra sized set of tires for our cars?

Our choices now, listing from worst to best, we'll start at the bottom:

-I think we can all agree that the most commonly available tire that fits a Cobra, the BFG Radial T/A, is crap. It's out of the question.

-The Galaxy Vitour is made in China, and sort of an unknown at this point. The fact that we're even considering a Chinese tire from an unknown manufaturer is in and of itself a perfect illustration of how desperate the situation has become.

- Emerging as perhaps the most reasonable alternative at this time is the Mickey Thompson and the Cooper Cobra. The are essentially the same tire, made by the same people. It's a decent tire, reasonably priced, but no one is mistaking it for a high performance tire for our typically extreme performance cars.

- Next is the Goodyear Bilboard. First of all, I think everyone will agree that NOTHING looks more badass on a Cobra than a set of Billboards. They're plenty sticky when warmed up. However, they are a primitive bias ply design, they are not DOT legal for street use, and if you've ever picked one up unmounted you'd see that they are extremely light, made for somewhat temporary duty to be used on a track and tossed away when worn out. For those of us who prefer to take long rides through the countryside, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with them. They flat spot when they sit for a while, they sometimes leak air, they track grooves in the road like a train follows tracks, and they throw rocks like crazy. But damn, they sure look good. They're hard to say no to.

-Lastly, we have the Avons. Lots of you hate to hear this, but they are NOT good tires. No one really uses them but us, because they're just reasonably good, essentially marginal tires, but at a super premium price. No other performance vehicle owner who has another reasonable choice uses them. They're just not very good, they're simply the best available of a bad group. Porsches, Camaros, Vettes, BMW's, etc - no one uses them! You can get Michelins, Bridgestones, Nittos, Pirellis, Hankooks, Toyo's and the list goes on for these cars for half the price of Avons and get a tire that's state of the art, likely twice as good. The price they charge for these Avon's is laughable.

There you have it. As a group of Cobra owners we moan, whine, *****, and complain about this year after year, but nothing changes. So the question is what can we do about it? Perhaps in the end, nothing at all. It's certainly worth a try. We have so many people on this board and others we know who may not on this board who have such vast experience in this business, and so many contacts.

The first question is how do we find out a rough idea about how any Cobras are running around out there? That's the key point. We'd have to be able to show any prospective tire company what market they might reasonably see, what their potential market would be. Then, depending on what contacts we as a group could turn up, target a manufacturer that might be willing to listen.

As an example, we know that the BFG Radial T/A is a terrible tire. The Flintstonemobile rock tires have more grip. However, did you know that BFG currently makes real performance 15" tires right now, albeit not in a size that fits out cars? They make a tire right now called the G-Force Rival S in 15" size. They also make the g-Force Sport Comp 2. Neither come in our size, but the fact that they are 15" might indicate a wilingness to expand the lineup of sizes? Who knows unless they're asked? Does anyone have inside industry contacts within BFG?

I've tried on multiple occasions to get Coker interested. They have no interest at all. They make all these goofy sized antique car sizes that they probaly sell 50 sets a year, but they have no interest in tires for what has to be multiple thousands of Cobras out there. I don't get it. Does anyone have any inside contacts at Coker?

I know this all sounds like wishful thinking, and in the end it may well end up to be just that. However, it sure couldn't hurt to try to move the needle a bit and see what response can be drummed up.

Thoughts?

EDIT - I just thought of this - If any of us were to try to do this alone, it would likely (and righfully so) be blown off by the tire companies as an enthusiast trying to get tires made for his car. However, does anyone here belong to SEMA? Perhaps the way to get this done is for multiple SEMA members to try to get something done through SEMA and/or well connected SEMA contacts. Just a thought...

[PDUB]

Let's not forget that there are the other 60s era muscle cars that would increase the market potential, as well. It may not be huge, but it is there... that could help.

[twobjshelbys]

I had a very good marketing guy that explained to me that commodity volumes are driven by TAM (Total Available Market, ie, the number of Cobras) factored with market penetration. It is going to be extremely difficult to acquire enough long term volume to justify the tooling expense for a complete new line of low volume tires. A Johnny-come-lately brand will not fare well, and to get someone like Michelin to tool for the sizes will cost a lot of money and the tires would be priced accordingly. Then you have the long term issue of storage (tires, like milk and eggs, have an expiration date). The second part of TAM for a commodity like a tire is that the demand is fixed and a new supplier can only get volume by taking it from someone else. So if a new Cobra tire appeared it would have to be compelling.

On the other hand, manufacturers do still make tires for things like vintage Rolls Royces. I'd start by locating and talking with those low volume manufacturers. Or is that Coker and noone else? Hearing they have no interest and specialize in that market is not a good sign.

Why not go to SEMA and visit the tire barn? They have acres of wheels and tire displays.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I had a very good marketing guy that explained to me that commodity volumes are driven by TAM (Total Available Market, ie, the number of Cobras) factored with market penetration. It is going to be extremely difficult to acquire enough long term volume to justify the tooling expense for a complete new line of low volume tires. A Johnny-come-lately brand will not fare well, and to get someone like Michelin to tool for the sizes will cost a lot of money and the tires would be priced accordingly.

I agree 100%, Tony. The hardest part of this whole thing may be how to determine within a hand grenades throw accuracy what the installed base of Cobras is actually out there. I have no idea how to go about that. Just taking the top makers sales out there - FFR, ERA, Backdraft, Superformance, and a couple of others totalled up is likely well into the many thousands. Now, of course not all of them, especially the Backdrafts are using 15" tires, but it would give a start. As for the tooling expense, that's why BFG popped into my mind. They already have the tooling with the rock hard T/A's, as well as some tooling and the technology with their upline high performance 15" line. Maybe it wouldn't be such a stretch to basically combine the tooling and knowledge to come out with a superior product to the current T/A's

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Then you have the long term issue of storage (tires, like milk and eggs, have an expiration date). The second part of TAM for a commodity like a tire is that the demand is fixed and a new supplier can only get volume by taking it from someone else. So if a new Cobra tire appeared it would have to be compelling.

Absolutely. There are lots of hidden issues, logistics and such involved here. The key point is showing them that there is a substantial market. Remember, as stated in the post above, if we're talking about a complete tire line, then there is a huge muscle car/classic car market component to this as well. Perhaps the angle to be pursued is not a new tire, but a substantially improved T/A, more along the lines of the Comp T/A and the other 15" BFG that I has mentioned.

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

On the other hand, manufacturers do still make tires for things like vintage Rolls Royces. I'd start by locating and talking with those low volume manufacturers. Or is that Coker and noone else? Hearing they have no interest and specialize in that market is not a good sign.

The whole Coker thing confuses me. Looking through their product line, I don't see a single market/car type they serve that looks bigger than the Cobra market. Why in the world would they not be interested? We really need some inside industy contacts to try to get the ball rolling on this. Someone with a whole lot more industry insight and experience than I have, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Why not go to SEMA and visit the tire barn? They have acres of wheels and tire displays.

We'd need a SEMA member to do that. I'm not a member, although I wish I was. SEMA seems like it's a blast.

[twobjshelbys]

I went to Sema once after we moved here to Vegas. A Ford GT friend had a company that (on paper at least) fit the criteria. The whole thing was daunting. Like I said, tires/wheels alone filled one whole wing of the convention center (and smelled just like Sam's/Costco tire area). The area the most people think of as SEMA, ie, the mainstream manufacturers display booths with scantily clad booth babes would take you a couple of days to wander around. The competition was always with SEMA and CES as to who had the most square footage of displays. Then COVID shut everything down. We'll see what happens this year.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

The whole Coker thing confuses me. Looking through their product line, I don't see a single market/car type they serve that looks bigger than the Cobra market. Why in the world would they not be interested? We really need some inside industy contacts to try to get the ball rolling on this. Someone with a whole lot more industry insight and experience than I have, that's for sure.

Perhaps that is how they survive. They want 50 or 100 type orders based on a few basic sizes. Making 100,000 tires would be a daunting task. Then there's keeping the pipeline fresh. After you sell to the one's you're going to capture, say it's 20%, there isn't much follow on business.

PS. My car had the Goodyear "F1 supercar" tire that was the predecessor of the ones used on the Ford GT and then the GT500. I thought they looked pretty good. But they were hard as hockey pucks when cold (just as the GT/GT500 tires were).

As discussed many times, the Billboards are a bias ply tire. It's best you not look at high speed film of them at speed on a racetrack. They look like balloons about to pop. I was offered a set by someone that took them off because of the handling problems someone else reported here. On the other hand you've got to remember that the Shelby crew drove those tires at nearly 200MPH on the straights at Le Mans.

[eschaider]

I live in California and we have a lot of special situations out here including being the world's largest open air sanitarium. One of the other things we have is mountain lions.

Wise California sages (we have a lot — usually not very wise though) say if you are in the mountains and a mountain lion appears you do not have to be faster than the lion to survive, you only have to be faster than the next guy who is also trying to escape from the lion. It is noteworthy, if there is no other guy then you do need to be faster.

As strange as it may seem similar that sort of logic applies to manufacturers making tires for our cars. BTW Tony's explanation was a spot on, right out of the business books, correct explanation. The explanation that I will offer in a moment is the same thing distilled down to the basics.

Companies are in business for only one reason to make money. They use the money to grow bigger and make yet more money. You should be able to see where this goes.

For a tire company to decide to make tires for our Cobra's the only thing necessary is for the sales volume of those tires to improve upon the sales volume of the worst selling tire they currently offer. As soon as that happens they have a business reason to offer the Cobra tires instead of their worst selling tire.

The fact that so few companies actually have a tire offering should provide you with considerable insight into the market's appetite for those tires and the quality of business opportunity they represent to the potential manufacturer.


Ed

[eschaider]

I live in California and we have a lot of special situations out here including being the world's largest open air sanitarium. One of the other things we have is mountain lions.

Wise California sages (we have a lot of sages — usually not very wise though) say if you are in the mountains and a mountain lion appears you do not have to be faster than the lion to survive, you only have to be faster than the next guy who is also trying to escape from the lion. It is noteworthy however, if there is no other guy then you do need to be faster.

As strange as it may seem a similar sort of logic applies to manufacturers making tires for our cars. BTW Tony's explanation was a spot on, right out of the business books, correct explanation. The explanation that I will offer in a moment is the same thing distilled down to the basics.

Companies are in business for only one reason to make money. They use the money to grow bigger and make yet more money. You should be able to see where this goes.

For a tire company to decide to make tires for our Cobra's the only thing necessary is for the sales volume of those tires to improve upon the sales volume of the worst selling tire they currently offer. As soon as that happens the manufacturer has a business reason to offer the Cobra tires instead of their worst selling tire.

The fact that so few companies actually have a tire offering for our cars should provide you with considerable insight into the market's appetite for those tires and the quality of business opportunity they represent to the potential manufacturer.


Ed

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I live in California and we have a lot of special situations out here including being the world's largest open air sanitarium.

The fact that so few companies actually have a tire offering should provide you with considerable insight into the market's appetite for those tires and the quality of business opportunity they represent to the potential manufacturer.


Ed

I agree with you Ed. Though it could be that these multinationals have a business model that only allows for extremely high volume products/runs, which boils down to management having zero interest in a smaller market. Smaller runs might still be profitable but not fit the model.

That does not necessarily hold for smaller specialty manufacturers. I think I read that Cooper was consumed by Goodyear in a merger, but they might be an option, if Coker does not want to play, since Cooper makes Avons and MTs. Perhaps they could cook a higher performance radial in a Billboard mold...

[CompClassics]

Why reinvent the tire…..AVON CR6ZZ.

[strictlypersonl]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

Why reinvent the tire…..AVON CR6ZZ.

And the Mickey Thompson S/T and S/R.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by eschaider

For a tire company to decide to make tires for our Cobra's the only thing necessary is for the sales volume of those tires to improve upon the sales volume of the worst selling tire they currently offer. As soon as that happens they have a business reason to offer the Cobra tires instead of their worst selling tire.

Well, not quite. In a commodity market the TAM is fixed. One vendor gets more volume only by decreasing the volume of another. So if a tire vendor has a product offering of 5 tires, he's extremely unlikely to add a #6. It would displace and replace the bottom one.

The fact that so few companies actually have a tire offering should provide you with considerable insight into the market's appetite for those tires and the quality of business opportunity they represent to the potential manufacturer.

That's it in a nutshell... There are enough Cobras out there to probably support a low volume supplier, but the fact that there isn't one says there's no volume or profit to be had.

It's not like there are NO tires. They're just perhaps not ideal in the mind of the drivers. Still, noone has stopped making Cobra replicas because there's no tires to put on them.

But, I'd still hit the smaller manufacturers at SEMA.

So, what's the spec sheet on the ideal cobra tire?

[jknich]

Hankook and ProTrac make tires too in the Cobra sizes.

Hankook specs frome Tire Rack:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec....omCompare1=yes

Coker Tire has ProTrac.

[jknich]

Here is a new source:

https://americanraceronline.com/tires/dot-street-stock/

http://www.americanracertires.com/store.php?cid=30

[KarlzEE Bebout]

I'm using the Cooper Cobras on the street and have been satisfied with them, since I'm not pushing the corners nearly as hard as I used to. I've been stuck in the rain a few times and even slushy snow, once, and was happy with their traction then. I had run a few sets of MT SR's on my other car, with much more poser, and was pleased with their heated up traction but not so much with moisture.
Has anyone had experience with the Hankook's listed at Tire Rack?

[tortuga]

Aside from the silly price and the abysmal life expectancy, they are in a whole other realm than the coopers i had fitted previously.

I would disagree that they are not good tire. They are as good as it gets in 15” cobra tires.

[eschaider]

There is a range of traction you can expect from the various tires available to us. At the top of that listing you will find the Avons. At the bottom you will find tires like BF Goodrich or worse (God forbid). Bad traction tires make for bad experiences and then the Avons look cheap.

Ed

[saki302]

My Avons will beat a worn set of Hoosier A6 17's on a tight track by 2-3 sec/lap consistently.

For dry traction, they aren't bad at all- quite good actually.

-Dave

[Timinator]

I don't have 15's on my Cobra, but I sure like the looks of the 15's. What size is it in 15's that you're looking for or want built? I know, the "correct/best" looking 15" tires for Pantera's were also discontinued years ago. I had 305/50/15's on the rear of the Pantera, and they don't make that anymore.

[MKS427]

Tony had mentioned market share. You have to consider 15" wheels are 1960's technology. I imagine, tire companies do not recognize market share in lesser performing tires. Shorter sidewalls are essential for handling. Currently, the best handling tire and wheel packages are on 19" and 20" wheels, the latter to accommodate larger brakes. Z/28s and GT350 were tested on multiple tire and wheel packages and 19's had the best grip. CSX 3170 runs 19x10.5 and 19x12 and we know Bruce Cambern is 100% about handling.
Perhaps you consider keeping the 15s for shows and daily driving and get some 17, 18, or 19s for the track. The 15s with 2020 technology will not rival the larger wheel packages.
I wanted the 15's for my car, but opted to go with 17's to accommodate bigger brakes. The reality is when it comes to handling, 15's have gone the way of the Dodo.
https://www.fuelcurve.com/twice-bitt...-shelby-cobra/