Intercooler/forced induction........

Jahred · #1 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 08:15 PM

Somebody tell me if I'm about to do something stupid here......

I've been thinking for some time about how to get more, better and cooler air to the cobra. I'm driven to an extent by the low compression in the 514. Seems like there is alot of room there for a tighter fuel mixture.

I have rigged an electric 300 CFM (one so far) blower which is set up to draw all its air through a fairly extensive web of copper tubing imbedded in dry ice.

I know the 514 will draw closer to 1100 CFM, but with the set up it will draw it, I think, with a 300 CFM head start, and through the freeze dried maze of copper. I have not measured the drop in temp yet. Hope to do that soon. Am expecting a pretty short throw from the blower to the carb. But it won't be a closed system as with a typical superchager.

Any thoughts on this? Anything in dry ice vapors that would be damaging to the engine? I am not really expecting alot of functionality from the blower, other than to force colder air in front of warmer air that might otherwise enter the system.

I did a search on the net some time ago and certainly did not come up with anything positive about home made forced induction. So this may be more like a fancy ram air system with some cooling.....

Any thoughts in advance of actually installing this thing appreciated........long ways to go till spring. I must be getting the fever........

Bruce Edwards · #2 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 08:22 PM

Not really sure what you are trying to do. If you are just trying to cool the air charge a bit put the dry ice around the carb and on the intake. You do not want CO2 getting in the engine. It will cut down on the performance. CO2 does not burn and you want to get a denser shot of oxygen.
Is the hood sealed to the carb? Getting cool air from outside instead of under the hood will make a big difference.
We built up a Ram Air system for our car that seals the hood to the top of the air cleaner base. Only outside air can get in and it is always cooler than under hood air.

RICK LAKE · #3 (**permalink**) 02-08-2004, 05:22 AM

Jahred John if you want to cool the inlet air charge Have you thought about water injection. Do a 50/50 mix with alcohol. You can add more timing to the engine and make another 5-30hp without any damage if setup correctly. How much more power are you looking for?? Other people have used the AC to build a chiller for there cars but with a turbo or blower. Cools the air going into the motor after the turbo. A good sealed air box to your carb will help just the same. Rick Lake

cobrashoch · #4 (**permalink**) 02-08-2004, 07:18 AM

I just bought a innercooler from Vortec for my supercharged app. I too don't know exactly what you are trying to do. Are you are trying to cool the intake charge of a normal asperated car? If so I believe any performance gains you might get (small) using the stuff you mentioned would will be more than offset by the extra weight you will carry on the car. Bruce Edwards has it about right,
sealing off your carb. from the engine heat is about as good as it gets. You can throw in a fuel cool can for good measure for some goods results esp. on hot days. And make sure your car runs cool. Now if you are supercharging, a innercooler is a whole new ball game. Some clearification might be in order.
cobrashock

Jahred · #5 (**permalink**) 02-08-2004, 07:29 AM

Bruce, thanks. What I'm trying to do is get about a 20 to 30 degree or better tempreature drop of condensed air into the engine.

I've got so little clearance under the hood that I have trouble with the Ram Air. I've only got room for a 2inch paper filter with a 1 3/4 inch drop down. So I can't even get a K&N filter "up top" to accommodate a good ram air set up. I must admit I haven't spent the time to construct a "turkey baster" from the air cleaner base which might get enough air through even the 2inch filter.....

I'm a little nervous about having any dry ice in contact with the engine.....concerned about warpage or tolerance changes when hot meets cold in the heads.

Should be 99% condensed air that gets pushed........but that was part of what I was looking for in terms of whether there was anything harmful with vapors etc....

Thanks for the input.

Jahred · #6 (**permalink**) 02-08-2004, 07:38 AM

Rick, thanks. I'll put that on my things to research list. Not sure I am knowledgable enough to start playing too much with the fuel mixture........

Your reference to the a/c is a good one. That is just what I'm trying to do...except I didn't want to install a/c in a convert just for the cool air.....and there arent many or any set ups for 460's in the intercooler/supercharger range......plus no clearance......cost....(thousands and thousands)......those issues...

Running an a/c unit straight into the aircleaner set up is an option I'd consider. This so far is probably cheaper and I'm hoping for a little more forced air and cooler temps.......though time will tell on that point....

Jahred · #7 (**permalink**) 02-08-2004, 08:00 AM

Ron, if my efforts here fail, I think I will go back to the "turkey baster".......I think those are good comments. This set up is pretty simple really. It weights about 10 pounds and there is no engine drag as nothing is connected to the engine as with the supercharger etc. I just dont have room for that stuff and am probably just too damn cheap short term to re do the hood, paint and get into the rest of the set up.

Did you have to modify your set up to accept the supercharger et al? What'd it run by the time you were done?

The fuel cooler is something I will need to look into. That sounds like a nice simple net positive as well. Maybe with the right placement I can kill two birds with one stone.

As far as clarification, I have at present clearance problems that leave me with a very awkward 2 inch paper air filter with a 1 3/4 inch drop down. So I am damn close to metal to metal inside the aircleaner. I just dont like that restriction. So I am intending to prefilter and blow chilled air, as condensed as I can get it, at 215 MPH straight into the air cleaner. at that point my 2 inch paper filter will be keeping cold air in instead of inhibiting the flow of outside air into the intake.......as I'd guess the paper filter is only 650 to 750 CFM.

If nothing else, it will be an inexpensive, fun experiment. Long as I dont blow something up in the process. At the end of the day, I'm running a normally aspirated 514 and want it to be breathing at least reasonably well......I'm not convinced my present set up achieves that.....

cobrashoch · #8 (**permalink**) 02-09-2004, 11:35 PM

Johnny - I see about 85 holes in the logic you are trying. First thing, the output of a air cond. compressor is noisy, much too loud for open output use. And dependent on the compressor used, will have a marginal air output at best, not to mention you will loose more horsepower driving its belt than you can ever hope to recover.
Forget all the trick stuff and think about trying the following, as there's a history here. The following REALLY works, esp. on hot running Cobras.
1st- correct me if I'm wrong but a Shell Valley has a slightly raised hood scoop. So open the hole up in the hood scoop, under the scoop to match the scoop. Next get a 1 inch carb. aluminum spacer plate and have a plate welded to it's perimeter, dropping down but not touching the intake. Next, find a nice BIG air cleaner filter element (performance better yet) at your local auto zone. One that will sit over the whole carb. on that welded on plate and centered on the hood hole above. With the spacer/plate sitting on the intake manifold, air filter around the loose carb. make sure the air filter element is not so tall as to touch the hood. Draw a line around the perimeter of the filter you selected on the plate. Add about 1-1/2 inch to the line drawn, trim it down and construct sheet metal walls that go up to the hood. These walls can be pop rivited or welded on. On the top of these walls a rubber seal should seal the air cleaner to the hood. (aka, as a big ol' turkey pan) You will have to drill a oblong hole in the plate inside the air cleaner element for a throttle cable feed, and a fiting for the fuel line to tie to, in/out of the baseplate. I've allways put a fuel filter in that line that goes to the carb right inside the filter element. You can use silicone to seal up the works and your done with that big ol' turkey pan. The cost/quality of such a project will be determined by the materials you use and the time you put into the project of course. Put a top plate over the air cleaner element per normal, it may have to be home made, dependent on the element size you selected and your almost good to go. I would recomend you run a heat spacer on top of that homemade air/box spacer plate and your standard 1050 Dominator. The bakelite types are the best ones and the most expensive I might add, but Holley makes several types for Dominators. If you are using a standard flange Holley there are a bunch of guys that will sell you cheap heat spacers. You will also have to change over to studs on your intake manifod to hold all of this stuff together without a vacuum leak. I made one a few years back that used 3 filter elements stacked on top of each other. A Mopar 440/6 element that was so big that I had to prop up the baseplate with trimed down rubber stoppers between the plate and the intake manifold. Where there's a will,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A fuel cool can is next, and most guys fill them with ice. I saw a guy that constructed one a while back that cooled fuel using the output from the air conditioning condenser on a car with air. He used a double coil setup in the can, and filled it with antifreeze. Frost was on the can in the middle of summer. Such a setup can be ran continuous in the summer he told me, and he claimed the extra power he got on the street offset the power he lost running air all the time.
My new liquid to air innercooler is fed directly off the output of the Vortec V-4 supercharger, and cost me about 1800$ total with tax. Custom made by Vortec of course. The engine itself is a high dollar piece that is totally custom built, and I don't even know what I've got in it. Kinda scarry isn't it?
Working overtime and getting you car to run cool is also a very BIG, BIG, BIG piece of this puzzle. That's your starting point in my mind in any rate.
cobrashock

Jahred · #9 (**permalink**) 02-11-2004, 10:30 PM

Ron, thanks for the very detailed and helpful post.

I think you are right, I need to start with building a custom drop down if I'm going to work with given contstraints.

My Shell Valley has the "normal" hood. Not the taller version. The scoop is solid, so no cutting required to open it up further.

Right now I can barely get a 2 inch paper filter on with K&N's most extreme drop down. Will have to see if I can build a drop down that will enable me to get a 14x3inch K&N with an extreme filter in place. If I can get there the "turkey baster" shouldn't be too hard..... and I can tinker with the rest of the "experimental stuff" ...... I've already tested the "dry ice" mechanism and the temperature drop wasn't as high as I'd hoped..probably 10 degrees.........No room I'm sure for a 1 inch spacer plate......with the low profile hood and the manifold set up I have I am not sure I could shut the hood without an air cleaner if I added a spacer plate...but like you say.....where there is a will there is a way........

cobrashoch · #10 (**permalink**) 02-14-2004, 06:53 AM

The plate could be made to fit directly on the manifild, but it is a bunch harder to construct that way. Warpage and other clearance issues will have to be delt with, and the throttle linkage and fuel line would also need some creative thinking. To me such challenging little projects are the fun part of this hobby and I would try something. BTW - Have you thought about addressing the root problem? Setting my 460 engine down lower was one of
the little projects I worked hard on with my car. I had to use a custom Stefs oil pan, but Armondo and others can rig you up a custom pan, and the costs were not really any more than a catalog pan when you really think about it. Addressing this issue now will give you wiggle room latter on, when you want to play other games,,,,,,,,,

cobrashock

Jahred · #11 (**permalink**) 02-14-2004, 08:21 AM

Ron, thanks.

I understand you comments after letting it sink in a day or two. And you are right......I don't need a "drop down"......that's already not working (at least in my imagination - the car actually runs fine)...... I need the base plate to be UNDER the carburator..........I think I've bought into that at this point.........I think there is already a small base plate.........will have to check.......that would serve as a host.

Anyway, I think I'm headed in the right direction on that front.........I did think about lowering the engine.......have a nice canton set up.......but something custom might be interesting........if I ever decided to actually do the supercharger, that'd be a great thought.........I think they actually have side pumps and stuff available if I'm not mistaken.........lower center of gravity.........room for an intercooler.........your gettin me goin, bud!........just have to make room in the budget for lots of very soft tires that'll actually handle that 750 HP........

Lord knows that'd be enough, right?? :-)

Bill E · #12 (**permalink**) 02-15-2004, 06:16 PM

Jahred_ You might wont to consider a Dry sump system. Less expensive than a blower and moor durable. It will lower the engine fore inches and gain up to 150 HP lower over all engine temp and improve oiling.

cobrashoch · #13 (**permalink**) 02-16-2004, 07:23 AM

Bill - that's the next project for me. Don't know a darn thing about dry sumps though. BTW - have you looked at custom racing wet sump oil pans lately? I'm not talking about the Cantons and the cataloge pans that are out there. (the one size fits all mentallity)
Might change your mind if you investigate. The horsepower number difference between the two is closer to 10/15, absolute 25 tops. I'm sure you are thinking old school, as I was, till just a few short years ago. NO ONE argues about the other benifits of a dry sump though. I'm putting together numbers on a dry sump right now. This also gives me a idea/question about a new thread. I am going to post in the shop talk section right now! cobrashock

Bill E · #14 (**permalink**) 02-16-2004, 10:23 AM

Who runs one pump? If you talk to RDI or Keith Black ech pump should be good for 20 to 25 HP a fore pump system should give you a net gain of 100 HP three are a lot of ifs involved in this equation. Maybe one of the eigne gurus will chime in. I will post a pitcher in my Gallery. Bill E

MAXVELO · #15 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 07:51 AM

what type Blower were you planning on?

Jahred · #16 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 09:33 AM

Max. Great looking set up. Looks fairly simple. (easy for me to say).......

Where did you get the carburator housing....the air cleaner component?

Do you know what kind of CFM your supercharger flows - if that's a relevent term of art for the application?

Thanks.

Jahred · #17 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 09:36 AM

Max - I forgot to ask......

What the heck kinda 1/4 mile are you running with that pup????

What kind of RPM are you getting from the 514..........how does it react over 5,000 RPM?

Trying to figure out if the power band flattens on the 514 the way it feels like it does, or if I'm just flat runnin out of air......

MAXVELO · #18 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 12:44 PM

When the car was owned by Weld Motorsports He (Carl Robinson) said it did just under 9 sec. with a set of slicks. As for the "air cleaner component" im assuming you mean the Carb Bonnet/ Blow thru etc. Because the air cleaner is under the car between the engine and tranny.It is a procharger unit that I had the fins machined off and the wrinkle finish sanded and then polished the unit. I am accually going to get rid of it and change to the Extreme Velocity unit at superiorairflow.com. with all the $$ I spent on this unit I coulda had three of the Extreme Velocity units! I have my red line set at 6200. I have a Nasty power band between 2800-6200. I dont think its starving for air since I have a constant 7-9 PSI of boost thru the band.