rumor control--has SAAC lost its use of Shelby name?

[A-Snake]

The following was posted by Rick Kopec on the SAAC Forum in response to someone asking a question about personal information given to SAAC over the years.



"Personal information given to SAAC for the registry will not be shared with anyone else. Period. Some of it is considered "public" (what will get into the registry and, hence, be available to anyone who purchases a book). The rest is "private" (address, phone numbers, email addresses, Ford serial numbers and other info the owner has asked the registrar to keep confidential). Despite any legal claims from anyone outside the club, there are confidentiality issues and First Amendment issues. Don't worry about this.

If you want something to worry about, worry about SAAC losing this battle. In simplest terms it would mean someone else would control the registry. Someone who would have a financial interest in which cars were deemed "legitimate" or "original." SAAC itself has no financial interest in the value of anyone's car. We were keeping track of these cars when Cobras were selling for $5,000 and Shelbys were selling for $1,500. It doesn't matter to the club or the registrars that Cobras are now worth $500,000 and Shelbys are worth $200,000. All it means is more zeros in the footnotes. If "continuation cars" could be built by anyone paying for a serial number, the desirability and value of these continuation cars would not rise to the current level of the originals. On the contrary, the desirability and value of the originals would sink to the level of the look-alike and clone car.

This is not a battle between Shelby and SAAC. It is a battle between Shelby and every member of SAAC— current owners as well as future owners. One-on-one, none of us would stand a chance. But if we band together and stay together we will win. The saying "there is strength in numbers" was never more true."

Rick Kopec
SAAC Nat'l Director

[Naumoff]

I don't understand.
SAAC started and compiled all the info for the registry how can Shelby have any rights to that?

Shelby did not start the registry.

How does a book of information and the supporting confidential info given by owner of cars make it the property of a third party?

If Shelby wants papers and stuff that he gave(?) to SAAC for there archives what does that have to do with information given to SAAC by other people?

To me a license to use the name Shelby and his logo has nothing to do with the registry.

[Trevor Legate]

...and hope nobody noticed..........

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

...and hope nobody noticed..........

Maybe I'd take a bunch of pictures and write a book. Then I'd go after all those other authors who already had written books on the Mona Lisa...

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Maybe I'd take a bunch of pictures and write a book. Then I'd go after all those other authors who already had written books on the Mona Lisa...

On the other hand, maybe I would just paint the ceilings of some churchs and leave clues about the holy grail so that Tom Hanks could have a starring role in a movie a bunch of centuries later.

[CHANMADD]

Wow !! My knuckles hurt now!

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

On the other hand, maybe I would just paint the ceilings of some churchs and leave clues about the holy grail so that Tom Hanks could have a starring role in a movie a bunch of centuries later.

...when you start replying to your own posts...it's time to leave the thread for a while.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by computerworks

...when you start replying to your own posts...it's time to leave the thread for a while.

I thought only Jamo made fun of me for doing replying to my own posts. Et tu Ron?

Alright, before I go for the day,...

If I were the caretaker for the Louvre, and fatal injured, dying on floor, I would write a message in my own blood, "princess sofie, get lawyer langdon, cancel the tshirt license agreement with those folks who saved the mona lisa from the nazis, and give it to my new friends instead."

Later...

[fsstnotch]

I couldn't agree more

[Jamo]

Looked a might light in the ass too.

[Excaliber]

In all the examples you sighted above, cobraviper, no doubt there were many people who at the time of battle DID in fact abandon the car in question. Out of disgust for the 'man'. As it should be, it sends a message, heros are hard to come by. Interesting group of people to associate Shelby with I might add, fitting, very fitting. The cars survive, the people associated with the cars remain tarnished to varying degrees. Shelby fits well within that group, on a moral and a car building level. I'm not perplexed at all, it's just Shelby history repeating itself.

[Jamo]

cobraviper 99

I don't think your comparisons are valid, and you fail to give weight to the situations which have occurred over the past several years regarding lawsuits, production issues and broken promises...all as a result of marketing the personality rather than the product.

Mr. Ferrari had a monopoly on building Ferraris. Delorean wasn't trying to make new GTOs.

Perhaps Shelby is a distinct model that doesn't fit into a pigeon hole.

Perhaps he is indeed one of a kind. Maybe that is a good thing.

[cobraviper_99]

Let's not overcomplicate my premise. It's not a question of what Shelby has done recently, the disposition of his lawsuits, what Delorean or Ferrari were in the business of creating or whether or not any of the above men were more or less reprehensible than CS. My entire observation is simply this: The disapproval of whatever Shelby has been involved in legally, financially, and professionally in recent years has led to former devotees of his automobiles losing much of their ardor for the cars he manufactured/manufactures. Many former automobile figureheads in the past haven't passed the Moral-Ethical Sniff Test with flying colors (Henry Ford was an admitted anti-Semite) but the image and desirability of their cars haven't suffered among enthusiasts or in the marketplace.

I"ll let others decide if Shelby's rap sheet compares with the other examples I've used. Some would argue that he has a long way to go to deserve the kind of vitriol his predecessors have earned. Others would (and have) already issued a guilty verdict in Shelby vs Everyone Who Used To Like the Guy. For me, I find that quite a fascinating contrast.

[Jamo]

Well, your premise is your own.

I'm not sure anyone has expressed any loss of love for the damn little basturd cars...in fact, most folks indicate exactly the opposite. If you're talking about his branded little basturds, then your premise does indeed fail to take into account some of the things I mentioned...simply because folks don't like paying money and waiting until he!! freezes over, they damn near die or get taken with subcontractors flaking out. He has competition, and folks are aware of their alternatives...

And really, just WTF cars are you talking about? The originals certainly aren't losing value, the new ones seem to be selling ok due to new management (though some dealers are still snake-oil salesmen when it comes to meeting committments), and their resale seems to be holding in the marketplace. You assume the cars have suffered...where did you get that from?

In fact...just WTF are you talking about?

Is this some later stage of CSXR angst?

[Excaliber]

So, Cobraviper, who do you support in the 'hostile take over' of the SAAC name? Oh maybe wise man that you are, it's best not to take sides? Perfectly understandable.

For me this isn't about the cars (long term) or the people (Cobra owners are a great bunch), it's about the 'man' and his current business goals (crush SAAC). Of all groups, the very one who has been a key ally of his over the years.

[Cobrabill]

Cobraviper-carefull how much credit you give JZD.When he called down to engineering to see if the GTO"idea" could be done,the reply was:"when do you want to drive it"?It seems they already built the GTO before JZD ran the idea past them.Delorean surrounded himself with very talented people:Knudsen,Estes,Wangers,Roberts(Fireball).His talent lay in knowing how to bull$hit the 14th floor.Plus he was departed over 10 years from Pontiac before any of his "shennigans".The GTO reference is rediculous.

Back to topic:any Shelby owner(Cobra or Mustang),who thinks that giving CS sole ownership of all SAACs paperwork/records(and thus their hardwork)is a good idea,is out of their phucking minds.

[cobraviper_99]

Why is the vibe here getting so hostile?


"In fact...just WTF are you talking about?""
"Is this some later stage of CSXR angst?"

Isn't this the forum that implores its users to show "Respect, respect, respect"? What was it which I posted that was at all disrespectful to anyone, and yet I get the "CSXR angst" slam?

Let the record show that strictly because my bio shows I own a CSX, that information somehow gets pulled into the conversation as if the mere ownership of that car makes me some kind of shill for Shelby. I've repeatedly stated he may be the inveterate scoundrel so many people accuse him of being, but his guilt or innocence wasn't the crux of my comments. I'll try to connect the dots for you one more time.

Post No. 499 from C5HM is an impassioned denouncement of not only Shelby but Ford as well. He states he'll never purchase another product from either entity and the responses from subsequent posters are generally supportive of his rage. I'm not going to tell him he's not entitled to feel that way and I'm certainly not going to protest his sentiments. What I'm questioning is why haven't we seen that same kind of disassociation with other automobiles which were conceived, built, manufactured, promoted, and/or connected to men of dubious business practices and allegedly unethical conduct? I offered examples which I'll adamantly stand by.

Also, Cobrabill, the book "Grand Delusions" by Hillel Levin is a remarkably detailed account of the John Delorean debacle. It documents clearly that the idea for the GTO was first discussed by Delorean, Pete Estes, and Bill Collins while visiting a GM proving ground to see the new-for-1964 Tempest. Delorean would play the pivotal role in the styling and engineering of the GTO, and it was his joint efforts with Jim Wangers that resulted in the spectacular advertising campaign which launched the car to immediate success. The fact that Delorean's folly with his own sports car occurred years later doesn't disqualify the reality that he is yet another automotive icon who fell from grace, was convicted of serious improprieties, and cars which he is most identified with remain popular without the odor of his malfeasance.

Finally, I have never said that the "values" of any Shelby vehicles have been placed in jeopardy. I stated clearly that there are people who have opted to abandon their deep enthusiasm for the Shelby nameplate because of their disapproval of the way he has been conducting his professional affairs. As I've already professed, the builder's character--or lack thereof--isn't a part of the pricing dynamic in the collector arena.

I didn't come here to start a fight, only to point out what I consider to be an intriguing phenomenon. If owning a CSX makes me fair game for a ***** slap, can someone tell me what happened to the "Respect, respect, respect" concept?
__________________

[hwoods6617]

Lots of great points made in this thread and I probably missed some of the best ones as I skipped from page nine to here. As a kid and car enthuasist, I lusted for a Cobra, but never got close, Also wanted a Pantera. Had a 427 65 Ford Galaxie and a 71 Maverick with a 427 in it--who do I owe a royalty fee for that one? The Cobra is a great car, but just an adult go cart. According to the logic of CS and his lawyers, anyone who does an engine swap on any vehicle should be paying a royalty fee to someone, the first guy to drop a flat head V-8 into a old jalopy. Maybe I should try to claim the naming rights to that first hot rod and file suit against everyone who has ever built a fun car to own and drive. all the CS BS takes a lot of the fun out of the auto enthuasist play ground. I think it was Redspirit who pointed out the obvious, that Carrol did not design the AC cars, he did not design the Ford built engines and transmissions. He just told someone to drop a 427 into an English built car. Now anyone who does the same owes him money? Not meant to offend, just MHO

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by cobraviper_99

Why is the vibe here getting so hostile?

No hostility here.Just your GTO reference was out in left field.And the JZD reference is in the parking lot beyond the stadium.If Delorean ran GM today,in about 5 years,they'd be back on top.Conversly,if CS ran GM today,in 90 days they'd be insolvent and Toyota would own them in 2 years.
Your average auto exec would give his left nut to be able to put JZDs accomplishments at GM on their resume.The same can't be said of CS(Driving history is another issue)


Also, Cobrabill, the book "Grand Delusions" by Hillel Levin is a remarkably detailed account of the John Delorean debacle. It documents clearly that the idea for the GTO was first discussed by Delorean, Pete Estes, and Bill Collins while visiting a GM proving ground to see the new-for-1964 Tempest. Delorean would play the pivotal role in the styling and engineering of the GTO, and it was his joint efforts with Jim Wangers that resulted in the spectacular advertising campaign which launched the car to immediate success. The fact that Delorean's folly with his own sports car occurred years later doesn't disqualify the reality that he is yet another automotive icon who fell from grace, was convicted of serious improprieties, and cars which he is most identified with remain popular without the odor of his malfeasance.

JZD never dis-connected himself from a product and then 25 years later started yelling"Do over,do over"like a 6 year old at recess.
JZD-never tried to extort money from people
JZD never had a lawyer on speed dial

I've met McKellar and know Arnie Beswick & Jim Wangers.Trust me,i know what went on in the early days.
I'm not here for a fight neither.Just calling you on your Delorean comparison.

Digression concluded

[Jamo]

cobraviper99

Well then stop being so serious and try to have a sense a humor...

You get rather aggressive when folks disagree with your "premise." Just because you say it doesn't make it so. I happen to think it's invalid (and evidently so do others), especially since you now indicate that it relies on a few posts by some folks on this thread.

What is said in a forum of folks who are somewhat dedicated to the cars and the man is going to be quite a bit different than the general populace...again, as noted by others, something which someone involved in the media should be aware of.

And yes, the fact that you own a CSX and are writing about how you perceive folks to be transferring their anger to the car is extremely relevant and worthy of comment to explore where you are coming from. Other CSX owners (thankfully only a few) always seem to justify or defend their choice...or ask questions about why folks seem to take it out on the cars.

Same answer we always give Evan...it's not the cars. This thread has been about the actions being taken by an organization that the builder is closely associated with, hugely in conformity with past actions, against an organization that many feel kept the flame alive. Their is alot of emotion invloved in this particular situation. If folks say they wouldn't buy a car from someone because of such conduct, then it sounds like they feel that's how you respond in the marketplace.

I deal with boycotts against my clients because of labor disputes...so what the hell does a company's labor relations have to do with a bottle of wine? Why would someone decide not to see a movie because the actor takes a stand which is unpopular or because of uncivil conduct? Why did the Dixie Chicks have trouble selling their albums? That is indeed how marketplaces based upon perceptions and personalities work...they do not always conform to linear economic analysis.

It's a two-way street: You put your name on a badge and market it as value-added in order to gain a premium over the competition, then the value-added depends on the perception of the label.