small block versus aluminum big block for racing?

[pcoghlan]

I am trying to evaluate the pros and cons fof the small versus big block engines. I see the immediate weight handling advatages of the small block but surely an all aluminum 427 would give the same weight as a small block but with the extra power. Am I missing something obvious?

FOr example is the aluminum 427 a suitable choice for track racing? The obvious disadvantage of the aluminum big block would seemto be the cost.

I have a feeling this is going to result in strong emotions one way or the other

Paul

[GUMBALL]

Paul,

I am building an all alum. 427 and should have it completed shortly. The car is due in December but don't expect even close to an on-time delivery. When the two are mated, I will advise the outcome. Unless too much torque is a killer, I would assume the Alum. Big Block would "womp butt" over a similary set up Small Block.

Best of luck in your search,

John

[RACER X #99]

Guys ,
This is the all racing talk forum. We have already hashed over this topic too many times and the racers have their own ideas.
Take that debate over to the show car crowd
they will tell you what you want to hear.
Racer X #99

[pcoghlan]

Sorry, I would have thought this was a racing related thread?

If racers each have their own ideas this is what I was trying to understand.

I will search back through archived threads to look for it.


Paul

[GUMBALL]

Paul,

You have done nothing wrong here. This IS the place to solicit a response to your question. This topic was covered in the past and you should find some useful info on the previous thread. Should you need additional info, try again and don't be discouraged by someone who is enraged by different points of view. This forum is for EVERYONE.

Regards,

John

[BANDIT 1]

The Ford big block engine of choice for racing is the 460 stroker engines, if it is built all aluminum (block, heads, etc...) it will weigh alittle more than the original 289 small blocks. The 460 engines have been the engine of choice for racing for the past 30 years, with many advances in head technology and other features. You can get a very easy 600 + reliable horsepower out of a 460 stroker engine with a single 4bbl. carb.

Nothing sounds or runs like a big block!

You can get the job done with either a small block or big block, however it is a myth that the big block cars are that much harder to drive.

When I test drove a small block 485 horsepower stroker engined car at the Superformance dealership in Ohio, I felt like I could have driven the car fast through the turns with a cell phone in one hand while changing radio stations (if there was a radio...) with the other. When I drove the 460 485 horsepower engined Superformance car even though it drove as easy as any modern car, I did feel I had to pay attention more than with the small block version (this was not an aluminum block engine...).

My feelings were even though the small block car was easier to drive (and faster than $hit), the big block car was faster. I wasn't buying a car that my girlfriend could run through the corners fast, I was buying a car that with a little effort (and some balls..) I would be able to hall some real a$$ with.

I chose a custom built (non aluminum block) 520 c.i. big block engined Cobra, and it get's around pretty good!

What ever choice you make, good luck...

[renaissance man]

Has anyone ever tried or seen for that matter, a Ford Motorsport aluminum 302?

Small Block and aluminum???Hmmmm? I like that Combo. Ford Motorsport also makes a Aluminum 429.

[RACER X #99]

Guys
For all out drag racing go with the torque and big hp BB
For road racing go for the high reving sb. Pro built 358 ci Yates head 9 to 1 cr 600+ hp on 93 octane pump gas. probably cost 25g or more.
Read some of the previous posts. The serious road racers are running small blocks. Dennis Olthoff runs a small block and it screams.
Sorry about the car show comments,I didn't think you were serious.
Cranky

[pcoghlan]

Racer,

No problem!

I am looking back through the old threads and learning quite a bit. The CD drag coefficient thread has given me a headache!

Paul

[coyled]

Bandit 1, at road america, there were plenty of dual quad, stroked big block cobras. Time wise a supercharged fuel injected 347 wnt 2:42. My fuel injected 358ci went 2:44. A carbed 342 went 2:46. I was on the straights with several big block cobras. I ran and hid from them. Best big block time was 2:55. Thats 10 seconds. For what ever reasons, and its not the driver in my case, the small block cobras are dominating the big block cobras time wise. I have seen this in phoenix and at willow springs in california. Not to say that there are not some well set up,well driven, fast big block cobras. I am sure there are, just guys like me and cranky have not seen many. Is that because there just have not been many out there or is it because all around, for road racing, the small blocks have an edge. I don't know. scott

[BANDIT 1]

I am never going to say that racing a small block stroker Cobra is not dangerous, anyone will agree with the Torque and Horsepower of a big block Cobra (and alittle more weight) they are the more dangerous of the two.

As I have said before, let Dennis Olthoff or someone as comparable of a driver race in a comparable Big Block Cobra I think they would beat there best times in there own small block Cobras!

After they did beat there best small block time, I'm sure they would say it was one hell of a scary ride but none the less I know it would be faster.

[RACER X #99]

Bandit,
On paper it may seem the big torque BB will beat the small blocks, but with a 2500 lb cobra anything over 650 hp is a waste of power. You can only fit so big a tire in a Cobra and if you can't put the power to the track you can't use it. Did you ever notice the tires that the BB modifieds run ? They are sometimes 18" wide.That's the kind of tire you need with an all out big block.In an all out drag car you can run the bigger slicks if you open up the wheel wells, than maybe you can put all that BB power to the ground.I run 11 in rr slicks in my cobra and can spin the tires coming out of most corners with a little 351 Crate motor. You just don't need BB torque to be fast on the road course.
Scott Coyle knows what he is talking about and most of the experts agree, small blocks for road racing.
Even the Shelby 4000 spec racer is built with a 351 windsor.
Build as big a motor as you want but don't be surprised when you get blown away by a small block.
Cranky

[coyled]

Bandit 1, I am not an expert on road racing but this is what I think I have learned. The trick to going faster is balanceing the car early enough in the corner so that you can roll into the throttle before the apex and WOT just past the apex, at least for me. The added weight and added low end torque(there would be both) of a big block would make your corner entry and exit much tougher. The only supposed advantage would be power. The power advantage does not exist in todays world. I would bet that even with a quality driver, the small block would be consistently faster every time. Remember, on a road course, you will have 8 to 15 corners to deal with, so consistancy, and car controll is more important than any percieved power advantage. I road in a big block cobra yesterday and it was awesome.scott

[a427sc]

I'm gonna be good and shut up until next week.....

[crillyiv]

As much as I hate to admit it the SB does seem to rule the road courses.

I have a Ford SVO Aluminum 460 in my car. I am told that the block is in fact slightly heavier than the standard cast iron 460 block. According to my source the Ford Aluminum 460 block was built for strength and not light weight. I have not been able to find the weight of the block. I do not know how the Shelby Aluminum 427 block compares.

I always assumed that something made of Aluminum was going to be lighter than the same piece made of cast iron. Duh, maybe not.

If anyone knows a source for the weights of engine blocks, mine in particular of course, please let me know.

[cobrashoch]

Crankey's got got it right, but only by default. Let me explain. A cobra or any car should be thought of in a collective sense, where the parts work together to achieve a goal. With that in mine think of a formula car. Rail rockers,composits, computer adjustable suspensions,telemitry and more all make these cars state of the art. So what does this have to do with cobras?
Cobras are built using a parts orthodoxy that dictates a certain result. A cobra platform using most of the components talked about on this and other boards tends to limit USABLE horsepower to around 600 Hp. To build a cobra using "other" orthodoxys tends to be sacrilege, so the use of exotic parts tends to be a fringe activity.
My stated goal is to go 8.50's in the quarter mile and yet stay streetable. To do this I've had to drop the independent rear end ideas (orthodoxy) for example and rig up my own setup in the rear. The question then becomes, at what point does a creation cease to be a cobra?
It's no question that a big blocks extra torque can be made to handle anything ANY small block can throw at it. The real question is do you want to go there? Were we are now, that 600 Hp number can be had with a smallblock fairly easy and inexpensively. These cars can't handle much more.
crillyiv is right, a 460 iron block is about the same weight of a svt aluminum block though some castings(dependent on year) are sometimes a bit lighter with iron blocks. The big differance is the aluminum block is stronger and can be bored much more, giving you many engine combo's not available with iron blocks.
My vote- Use a smallblock and keep the car as light as possible. The FUN factor goes way up.
cobrashoch-A diehard bigblock guy.

[Andy Dunn]

Originally posted by BANDIT 1
let Dennis Olthoff or someone as comparable of a driver race in a comparable Big Block Cobra I think they would beat there best times in there own small block Cobras!

it certainly may be true that Olthoff in a BB could slap around a pile of SB racers on the track. There is one problem with this theory though. Olthoff can choose ANY engine he wants to race in his SPF and he continues to choose a stroked small block 351w.

The car he runs is a 408 stroker SPF#308 with trickflow R heads
http://www.secondstrike.com/OneLap2001/OLOA2001.htm

and this same car took the fastest time at this years Run N Gun
http://www.secondstrike.com/RunAndGu...AndGun2001.htm

I see he won big block category but I believe this is based on cubic inches and not block? Also, at the top of the page there is some info on Bob Olthoff's record from last year's event. Again, Bob O. can pick any engine he wants to race with. Bob Olthoff took Top Dog in the Pro Big Block class...again, a nice little 408 stroker with a measly 550HP

I think a wise man one wrote

BIG BLOCK = waxer
SMALL BLOCK = racer

hee hee haaaa.... just jokes



Andy
http://www.cobralads.com

[crillyiv]

I say the following with a sense of humour, and anticipation,

WAX THIS!



I may never be the fastest, but I'll enjoy the ride all the same. Besides, I doubt I'd be the fastest even if I did run a SB.

[crillyiv]

Per David at Race Parts

Alum 460 bare block 185 lbs
Stock Cast 460 bare block 225 lbs
Racing Cast 460 bare block 315 lbs

Race Parts 704.892.8688

Ford Racing 810.468.1356 They will refer you to Race Parts for the Alum engine. They only maintain a part # for Race Sanctioning bodies.

[cobrashoch]

Jim-I investagated aluminum blocks before putting together the engine I have now. At that time the block was available to all. I chose to buy a vortec pump with the loot available at that time because we started to weigh 460 blocks in shop. I was amazed at the differances of weights of m.t. blocks with DVE blocks being the heavy weights a 245 lbs. My listing showed the aluminum block at 195 lbs. The 71 block in my beast weighed 208 lbs after most of the machine work was done. I later deflashed the block but didn't weigh it prior to assembly. The late thinwall blocks come in a 195 plus or minus but I ruled out the use of them for performance. All things considered 30 lbs (+ or -) is not much when you think about it, for the two grand + differance ya think?
My completed engine weighed 466 lbs minus headers, carb,supercharger and bracketry with a aluminum H2O pump and intake manifold. The aluminum blue thunder heads I use are a bit heavier than most others I am told to.
Cobra Ed had a thread on this subject on 9/7/01 on the all cobra talk forum. It was called , engine size and weights. I book marked that thread. The difference numbers I see between 385/FE'S is interesting stuff.
cobrashoch