Responce to Coyled

[RACER X #99]

Scott,
The reason these guys don't believe the power numbers guys are quoting from small blocks is because these guys are not motorheads, gearheads, or racing fans of any kind.Anybody who has watched just one Nascar Winston cup race already knows what kind of power the Good Ol'e boys are extracting from those 358 cubes. I don't have to tell you the numbers but just in case one of them is lurking here I'll post some recent HP figures.
358 Craftsman truck motor 9.1 Comp. 390cfm carb. 550-600hp
358 Nascar Bush car 12-1 comp. 650-700hp
358 Winston Cup 14-1 comp 750-800hp
And they run all day at 7-9,000 rpm.
If these guys would ever read anything besides Shelby's History books they would learn something about modern Ford V-8's
Keep up the good work at the track and one of these days we will all get together and have a good time trashing the BB's Except for our pal McFez, One of the good running FE's

McCranky

[Satanpez]

Just curious, are the 358's and original 427 motors in the same price range?

-steve in nj-

(Seriously not trying to start a fight, I wonder what the motors go for)

[RACER X #99]

Steve,
Very expensive, made from pure unobtanium.

McCranky

[a427sc]

Well, Make sure you get this now cause I won't say it ever again.


NASCAR guys are the ultimate engine builders for 2 valve, pushrod, carbureted V-8's. The current development of the Windsor design (notice I didn't use small block since they are not all that small anymore) is far superior to the best FE ever built. Of course, the FE had its origins as a truck motor, designed in the early 1950's, and discontinued in the early 1970s. The Windsor was designed in the late 1950's/early 60's and produced until recently. The FE WAS state of the art in it's day, unlike the Windsor at that time, due to development programs within the factory and with NASCAR builders. But time has passed it by.


But please, there isn't a pushrod engine ever built that can hold a candle in specific output/cu in or even racing milage (yes, thats important too), to a current state of the art DOHC 4v . He!!, Peugeot figured the DOHC 4V out back in 1908 or so. So lets lighten up on how wonderful the 358 is. When you can get 4+ hp/cu in and turn 17,000 rpm with out turbo/super chargers or nitrous, call me back.

McFEZ

PS Thanks for the complements and inclusion of my FE car as one of the "fast guys" in a world of Windsors.

PPS You Cranky guys have never actually seen it run good. VIR/Summitt Point was only maybe 80%.

[bmalone]

McFez:

Agree with you about NASCAR being the masters at extracting horsepower from a pushrod V8. Chronologically, the FE started life in '58 and run through I think '76 as truck engines (for all intents '68 was last year for 427 car engine). The FE followed on the heels of the Y block when it became apparent that the Y block (312) could not compete with Cheby.

If I'm not mistaken the 351W started life in '69 and they have been produced a mighty long time. The 90 degree V8's (289 and 302), which the Windsor is based on started life in'63.

Agree there are certainly more technological advances applicable to the Windsor.

Bill

[a427sc]

Bill, I added a few years to the begining for design time, your correct for production. Them engineers are way ahead of us users.

McFEZ

[RACER X #99]

FAST FORWARD May 2004
McFez opens the hood of ERA for tech inspection and OH MY GOD, look what he has done to the engine bay. Replaced the one time mighty,king of the hill FE with a genuine 4 cam 5.4 liter just off of the engine dyno fuel injected , Jerico shifted 850 hp Ford Little block.
Open track racing will never be the same.

Crankster

[John McMahon]

Doth my eyes deceive me????

Yeah, though McFez walks through the valley of the Windsor....he yields his might FE sword that would make other knights swoon in anticpation. He then cuts a swath through the legions of the faithful Knights of Windsor and proclaims....

FAGGEHDABOUDIT...YOUSE FREEKIN SB GUYS IS A BUNCH A DOUCHES!!!!!!

I do believe we must be close to Armegeddon for McFez to make a statement like that.

I am honored to be your friend Sir FE!

[Robert Evans]

My gosh!...Finally a place in this forum where civilized people can't speak to one another with their own opinions.

BTW, speaking of FE's, today Rem went through some of the mods which were needed in order to make the old Nascar 427 work and live in the MkII's for LeMans. The two motors are completely different animals. The motors for the MK II's were really detuned and modified both internally and externally to make them fit into the Ford GT. Their biggest fear was that Chevrolet had their BB producing alot more HP and was much more reliable in the Chaparrals. He said that if the Chaparrals had gone to a manual trans instead of the semi-auto, Ford would have never won LeMans either year...that's how dominant they were.

[RACER X #99]

Bob,
The same arguments by the same non motorheads over on the other post.
When did anyone ever tell them a 427 was a bad choice for a Cobra? All the sb fans ever said is if you want to race (not dragrace) the sb was a better choice.
The only time you will see sb envy is at the car shows where the BB is certainly the engine of choice for non racers.
If I owned a BB street/show car my first choice would be a SO 427.
I am sure I am not the first guy to trade in a 427 for a small block for track duty. Even the best 427 SO has a lousy oiling system for track use. Isn't that why the pro's from the sixties had dry sump systems in the race 427's.
I never saw anyone laugh at a BB when the hood was open but they sure do when they see a sb sitting there.
At track events when a guy with a BB opens the hood all the non racers crowd around to have a look even though other sb racers might be faster.
I guess it's all about image, if it is bigger it must be better, what fools.
RD

[Robert Evans]

X,
You got that right. The problem here is that these guys are looking at this thing from the point of view that there is a 'One-size-fits-all" perspective. It's not. I have no experience with a modern BB in a Cobra, just a small block. Modern BB motors are completely different from what they were in 1966, and so are the SB's.

Any comments that I have made about BB vs. SB are with regard to what happened in racing history in 1963-1967, that's all that I can do with a reasonable amount of authority. What happened in 1965 doen't apply completely to today.

I wish these guys would look at the use of the engines from different perspectives; roadracing in the 60's, roadracing in the 90's, drag racing in the 60's, and drag racing in the 90's. Each uses a different engine combo.

I'm just bummed that I got caught up in this thing again, so I'm the fool. I should have shut up and stayed quiet.

Here's a perfect example of how a mature person would have handled this type of situation:

Yesterday, Remington and I went to a Fabulous Fifties reunion picnic. All the famous drivers and personalities were there from that era. (At least all the ones still living).

I was looking over the shoulder of a gentleman who had an old scrapbook with alot of photos of sports car racing in the 50's with many of them taken of Lance Reventlow, Chuck Daigh and the Scarabs. This was a very dominant team back in '57-'60. This guy was telling everybody around all the tiny details of each of the Scarabs, right down to frame design, engine placement, and so on. It's almost like he had built the car. Everyone around was in awe of his great knowlwdge. So, I went over and grabbed Rem to come over and to look at the photos and listen to this guy and all of his wisdom. After about 5 minutes, Rem turned around , shook his head, and said that the guy was completely full of BS, that he was way off base on everything he was saying (Rem built the Scarabs for Reventlow)

I asked him why he didn't butt in and straighten him out, and he said that it would never do any good. All it would do is embarrass this guy in front of his friends, and make Rem look like the bad guy. It would never change anything anyway, or what this guy believes is the truth.

That's how it is here too. They won't change until they research it out for themselves and verify it in their mind. Street guys and drag racers will always vote for the BB. Racers and those who want to emulate the race cars of the 60's will choose the SB's.

[RACER X #99]

Bob,
It's a good thing we started the mutual admiration group over here. Now we don't have to read those silly posts from the non believers.
Was at the gas station yesterday gassing up my work truck and happen to glance over at the traffic and what do I see, a genuine facsimile of a Cobra, boy was that thing quiet. Not sure what power it had but it didn't sound real nasty like a sb, so it must have been a BB.

RD

[Robert Evans]

X,
Just read a post "over there" which stated that those drivers were too afraid to drive the 427 Cobra because it scared the crap out of them, that's why they preferred the 289's.

OK,...so how come those same drivers who were too afraid to race the 427 Cobras weren't afraid enough to race MKII and MKIV Ford GT's at Leman's at over 220mph? Phil Hill raced 465cid Chevy BB's in Chaparrals that had nearly 675hp and did quite well. That's about 150hp more than the Fords were producing.

[RACER X #99]

So now one of the biggest weenies over on the other post needs proof from one of the sb fans to justify that the sb can outrun the BB on the track. Just attend some races bozo and you will see. If all of your Cobra knowledge is learned at car shows and cruise nights, you ain't learned nothing yet.

This is why I gave up that show and shine crap, a bunch of street cruisers that all of a sudden became Cobra "experts"or 90% r's

Just glad they don't hang around here.

McCranky

[John McMahon]

Cranky, Big Bob,

I must agree with you both. I am tiring of this same old story as well. Maybe I should just hang here too or utilize that wonderful 'ignore list'.

Now we have resident experts that have never turned a wrench in their life.

Now, I have never professed to be a great mechanic or an all out Cobra historian (don't have the brain cells left...thank you very much!), but I at least do try to do as much myself as possibel. Have to, I have beer pockets in a champagne hobby!

Now, Big Bob...I greatly admire what you, Cal Metal and Snake Eyes have brought to the CC table. I feel you three are the heart and soul of this here site.

On a side note, I also enjoy the conversations we have on the phone and look forward to meeting you (as well as Bob and Dan) at some event.

I am envious that you have gone to such lengths to meet many of the gents that lived and breathed what we know as the Cobra.
I feel the best part is yu getting a unique perspective on how it was then, not some watered down "edited for content" out of some picture book.

Keep up the good work my friend!

JM

[Robert Evans]

Thanks.

[coyled]

Bob, how many big blocks have we seen gernaded at willow springs? I have seen 3 in 3 events. I think that the biggest differnece is durability. In 2 years, I have put over 5500 miles of street and track on my 358ci motor. I adjust the valves, change plugs and oil. Thats it. I have never done anything to the motor. Maybe I am on borrowed time and maybe a big block will beat me down a straight some day, but it has not happend yet. Mcfez, you may whip me on a road course some day but it will be because of the driver not the motor. I think the 358ci is wonderful. I have a number of winston cup drivers as clients and some trans am drivers too. These guys are not afraid to drive anything so the comments on the other post about fear of 427's is hard for me to believe. Also, I have been to the drag strip at least 200 times. I find it hard to believe that Bandits cobra, given to a friend, makes a pass and turns 10.50's on a true street tire. That would be a world record for cobra's on a true street tire. That kind of time is more likely to come after 200 passes and numerous tire presure and chassis adjustments, if it ever comes.Even at the drag strip it comes down to traction more than power. Other than bragging rights in a parking lot or gas station, I see no advantage for a big block. Scott

[RACER X #99]

Scott,
You are so right about bragging rights. Sombody convinced these BB guys that the 427 was the fastest car ever built or ever will be built. So they invest their hard earned money on a beautiful 427 Cobra with a BB and then they tune in to Club Cobra and find out the rebel Cobra owners are not so enchanted with the almighty Big Block 427 SO. They read about sb's kicking ass on the track and they are thinking " hey nobody ever told me a sb could beat a BB" so they buy a couple of Shelby authorized textbooks looking for the REAL facts. Nowhere in all the books can they find where it says sb's beat BB so it must not be true. They gather at local car shows and cruise nights and everybody there agrees that No way can a sb beat their almighty BB. But the rebels offer proof such as event results, open track results, Run and Gun results. The rebels have burst their bubble and they refuse to believe.

Keep on kicking ass,
Crankster

[Wayne Maybury]

Bob, Cranky, and others

I am not a racer, too old to start now and didn't have the money to do it when I was younger but I have been watching this BB vs: SB discussion with amazement. When I began to look at building a replica Cobra, one of the first things I wanted to have set was my engine choice. Having not been very heavily involved in high performance cars for quite a few years, I was totally unaware of what had been going on with engines, especially the Windsors.

I sat down with the best Ford engine builder in this area and had a long talk about what engine would be best for me. We went through the whole thing; cost, whether it would be raced, my preferences, etc. He told me that he could/would build anything I wanted but when I was able to get him to express his opinion, he told me that I would be crazy to build anything but a 351W. He listed the various parts, options, stroker packages that were available as well as the expected HP and torque from each setup.

He built me a 357 cu. in. Windsor for $7K Canadian that put out 472 HP and over 440 lbs of torque on the dyno. It starts first time, every time, has more power than I will ever be able to use on the street, doesn't overheat, gets reasonable gas mileage, does not leak or break down, and fills the engine compartment quite nicely, thank you. This whole BB vs: SB issue is bogus. Go with what you like and can afford. This idea that it has to be bigger to be better is based on an attitude that I really don't understand.

Of course I have always been a small block guy so I don't think I will change now.

Wayne

[John McMahon]

Wayne,

You better get ready to FAX your dyno sheets!!!!!!

My goodness, ANOTHER 351W putting out almost 500HP and 440 torque???

From a SB?????
Lies, all lies!!!! Preposterous.....Unheard of!

Sounds like your numbers are right in line with mine.

..but everybody knows how I lie about these things.

...no way you can get those numbers out of a SB.