willow springs

coyled · #1 (**permalink**) 02-10-2003, 01:41 PM

I took the cobra to willow springs with a buddy that brought a stock car. We ran open track on friday and the nasa event on saturday and 1 session on sunday for me. I ran a transponder for the first time which was not always working, picking up false signals.Well, most of the stock cars and race trucks were running 1.28's to 1.31's, which was fast enough to beat me in the cobra at 1.35 to 1.37. The stock car guys are flat footed all the way thru turn 8 and also flat footed from the entry to the turn 2 carousel all the way to turn 3. In the race, I saw a few stock cars and trucks go off turn 8 at 140 mph, thru the desert they went. I ran in the nasa group 4 on saturday and was faster than all but a zo6 and an aix mustang, both cars with slicks, cages, the whole shooting match. I was faster than the vipers, 911's, and several other zo6's in the group. The zo6 and aix mustang have the balls to stay in the throttle thru turn8 and also have turn 9 figured out, at least better than I did. I could stay with them in turns 1 thru 3, but they were faster in 4, 5, and 6. I would start catching them at the entry to 8 but would lift, turn and start to roll back into it before the brake and downshift for turn 9. I wish there were some kind of visual reference points in 8 and 9 instead of the desert blur. I was always bouncing and drifting at speed in 8, wondering if I could straighten the car and down shift for 9 before the track turns. I was having a great time drifting the cobra thru turn2 at like 6,000 rpm in third gear and hitting the rev limiter at 8200 rpm before the brake for 3. It had a slight push on corner exit that I was chasing around. Wound up down to 15 pounds in front and 17 inback cold, hot was 27 in back and 24 in front. I still had a little push in front and the rear of the cobra was bouncing in 8 and unstable in the brake zone for turn 1. I later saw my left rear shock with a puddle of fluid so the shock was toast. This could be why the cobra was getting to be more of a handful in the bumps. The brakes were starting to go away too. It was the most fun that I have had at a track with the cobra and the fastest I have gone so far. I know there are lots of guys faster than me at willow but I will go again and improve my times. There is nothing like driving the cobra with slicks and open pipes at a balls out track like willow springs. I can't wait for the next track event. There were 3 other cobras there, but they were in different groups.Scott

RACER X #99 · #2 (**permalink**) 02-10-2003, 02:01 PM

Way to go Scott, always Glad to hear another Cobra story from a guy who knows why they make Cobras.

Cranky

Clois Harlan · #3 (**permalink**) 02-10-2003, 02:17 PM

I havelooked at your bio yet but you must be running some kind of a stroker small block to be turning 8 thousand. I know Holman and Moody would test their 427 at those RPMS but not many of us can afford the trick stuff they were using. Great story.

Why don't you take a road trip on May 3 & 4 and come up to the new Mid America road course outside Omaha in Pacific Junction, Iowa. The Northwoods Shelby Club is having a Ford Event that weekend. It is a great track and is safe and fast. There will be plenty of Cobra's, Mustangs, Panoz, GT40's etc.

www.nwshelbyclub.com/mamreg2003.doc

Glad you had a good time.

Clois Harlan-Tulsa

RACER X #99 · #4 (**permalink**) 02-10-2003, 08:15 PM

Clois,
I know Scott runs a Nascar 358 CI so that should explain the 8k RPM's. I'll let him give you the details.

Cranky

Richard Hudgins · #5 (**permalink**) 02-10-2003, 08:23 PM

Hi Scott,

Sounds like you are having fun at Willow. A couple of things I have found there.

Turn 1 and 2. Turn one is much faster then most folks believe. You can shift at the exit of 1 into 4th gear and carry the speed through the turn 2. Downshift to third prior to the turn in for the straight following. (I know this seems odd, but it puts you in the right place of power curve)

Upshift into fourth early so that you stay in the max torque band and carry the speed as deep as possible into the left hander going up top. Carry 2nd around the top and shift early going downhill and carry third through the bottom. You can catch 4th prior to the right over the hill this way.

Turn 8 is a matter of trust in physics. Just keep you boot in it as much as possible.

Turn 9 is always apexed too early by most folks. Square the corner and you will find that you will not drive onto pit lane by mistake. There is a lot more track there than it appears.

(You know, your gut tells you that you are going to run out of track every time you exit nine. But it has plenty of room.)

However, I have put it off there in a F5000 car and it was exciting. I did not hit anything and therefore have gained some stupid courage. (Note: do not do this at home, only severely demented drivers are allowed these actions.)

Clois Harlan · #6 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 08:06 AM

Scott & Cranky,

I am ready for a little track time on my own--of any kind. Ii's been too long time since I smelled the sweet smell of 105 octane and burning rubber. I am ready to roll the car out of the trailer on a crisp clear morning, waiting on the seasons first drivers meeting. I am ready to get on pit row & line up to get on the track for the first time to do some practice laps.

After reading your story yesterday my productivity went south. I had a hard time concentrating on work when I wanted to be out on a racetrack. So I pulled out the Hallett Racetrack schedule and found they have a test and tune session in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the diversions.

Clois

coyled · #7 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 09:55 AM

Clois, its not stroked, .030 351, 358ci motor. I am going to try and run the road america( 1 long trip per year) event with the northwoods shelby club. Thanks for the invite but it is a long way from scottsdale. Richard, I appreciate your comments on willow. When I come out of turn1, the cobra is in a full drift. As I pop over the top of the exit to turn 1, where it flattens, the rears are slipping just a little in the drift. I tap the brakes before turn2 to settle the front and then I roll back into it. At the exit to turn2, there is plenty of power at 6000 rpm in third, I would not want to do any shifting there as it is drifting hard and pushing a bit too much. I'll move the rev limiter to 8500 rpm for the next trip to willow. I leave it in third going up the hill. When I have tried second gear, it gets twitchy at the top before going into third on the way down. I agree with you on going into fourth before the top of turn 6, its much more stable when I land on the other side versus third over the top. I do go into 6 as late as possible. I know what your saying about turn 9, I had exit room. I had a hard time getting the car squared on a late entry to hit the apex and try to be almost flat out just past the apex. I like the way the back end behaves and the cobra overall but I would like to get rid of a little understeer at high speeds(turn9 and 2) with out changing the back half of the cobra. I am thinking about a chin spoiler or lowering the front of the car a 1/2 inch to see if that helps.Comments? My arms are still tired from the death grip on the wheel in turns 2, 8, and 9. I don't want to spend 2k or more on adjustable shocks. Besides I wouldn't know which end of the shock to adjust anyway. Next time there, I want to get some instruction and some balls for turn8 and 9. In the end its 10% car and 90% driver anyway. It sure was a blast. Scott

Richard Hudgins · #8 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 11:02 AM

Hi Scott,

I would go with a front splitter (spoiler). Your high speed understeer is certainly aero related.

If you are pleased with the chassis balance at low and medium speed corners, I would not change the rake of the chassis. Lowering the front could produce oversteer.

coyled · #9 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 02:04 PM

Richard, thanks for the advise. In turns 3, 4, and 5, its fine. Really turns 2 and 9 are the most noticeable push at the exits. scott

DaveR · #10 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 02:51 PM

Scott or anyone that races at Willow,

I am currently building a car that I hope to run at Willow, and I still need to purchase all of the following items. If you could take a minute to give me some advice, it might save me from buying the wrong things, and then having to go back and re-buy the right things.

Cost is a factor, and I don't have to be the fastest, so keep that in mind when responding. I know that there is more than one answer to my questions, so just try to get me in the ballpark. I mainly need help understanding what the minimum safe brake requirement is, and what tire size to plan on.

I expect to have a 351W, TKO, 9" rear, 17" wheels, and 2500 Lbs.

What brand, compound, and size tire? Is wider always better? Should I buy the widest wheels that will fit? Is 17" the best choice? What kind of ground clearance will I need? What type of calipers, what size rotors. Currently planning on 4 piston superlight II's in front, can I get away with 11" rotors with air ducts to keep the cost down? Probably something similar in back. What type shocks, Carrera, QA1? What type and rate 2.5" springs. Is a steel bell housing necessary, or can I get away with aluminum?

coyled · #11 (**permalink**) 02-12-2003, 09:13 AM

Dave, in the 17's you have a wide choice of good street tires that can work at the track also. I am running 15's so I am do not know which brands or sizes. You want 4 inches at the frame rails for clearance on the street. I am running the wilwood 12.2 4 piston superlites in front with the zo6 style single piston pbr's in back. The cobra stops well with these. Springs and sway bars and shocks are trial and error. I would try to get adjustable shocks and sway bars if I had it to do over again. You only need a steel bell housing if you gernade the clutch, I have one. Good luck, as a lot of this is trial and error. Scott

agro1 · #12 (**permalink**) 03-05-2003, 11:30 AM

Scott -

Those are some very good times at Willow, man - nice job !! The fastest Cobra replica that I know of that has run out there was by Mike Eckhaus in an SPF...1.32. That is damn fast.

Richard Hudgins · #13 (**permalink**) 03-05-2003, 08:58 PM

Agro,

Chuck Miller has run has run his 351 Ford crate engine JBL in the 33's many times in open track events.

John Morton ran a 302 JBL car in the 28's. (Of course the driver had nothing to do with this.)

I have run Chucks car in the 29's. (Note: perfect day, perfect track.)

I bet that Scott can get into the mid 20's with a bit of chassis and aero work and a good track.

coyled · #14 (**permalink**) 03-06-2003, 01:50 PM

I doubt there is anybody faster than John Morton in a cobra at willow springs. Richard, I would love to get into the 1.20's. I have to get to the low 1.30's first. My times are with a transponder, so they are what they are. I had no problems staying with Chuck a year ago. I am much faster now. He is a nice guy, nice cobra also. I had both rear shocks leaking fluid when I got home and 1 of them was dead in compression. I sent them back to pro shocks. They are fixing the rear shocks(good guys to deal with) at no charge. Also, they are going to adjust the fronts, down 1 in bump and up 1 in rebound, based on what I have told them about the corner entry and exits. Are any of you guys running rear suspension limiting cables? I am wondering if the shocks are getting to extended as the rear unloads over the top of turn 6. In droop, when I jack up the rear, the rear springs are free of their purches. I wonder if thats why the shocks leaked. They are the same style body shocks they run on sprint cars, so me and the cobra should not be to tough on them. In the front, the springs stay tight? Any comments? Thanks Scott.

Jamo · #15 (**permalink**) 03-06-2003, 02:12 PM

Richard

Man, I know you're right about Turn 9, but it still just flat spooks the he!! outta me. I've used a Vette, the Audi 4.2 with some H&Rs and the Butler (Kirkham soon if it ever gets finished) and every time I come through 9 I end up lifting a bit, except in the Audi (can't screw that thing up even if I tried). There's a light or electrical pole (in the distance) I've tried to use as the turn in so I can apex later, but once you turn in, it just seems all wrong. All I see is that pit entrance. I've even thought of double-apexing...maybe that's what you mean about squaring it?

scottj · #16 (**permalink**) 03-06-2003, 02:43 PM

Scott,
I too run ProShocks on my E/M and I've run Pro's, Afco's, and now Penskes on my Late Model. On the dirt Late Model the left rear shock is used as a travel limiter - no cable. The left side of the car is topped out everywhere on the track except on except entry and none have leaked yet.

If your springs are loose at full sag (as mine are) you can use a
flat wire, "take-up spring", that Afco sells for that situation.
Scott

Richard Hudgins · #17 (**permalink**) 03-06-2003, 08:05 PM

Scott,

I would not think that you are topping out the rear dampers in 6. If you are, your rebound rates are way too low. You are not in an unloaded condition for very long at all. However, it is something to look at.

I would not under any circumstances run a limiting strap. You will not believe what this will do to the chassis if you reach it's travel limit. (Hint: it will jerk the tire right off the ground, same thing as topping out the damper.)

Also, my times were set with a transponder. (NASA weekend, friday tune and test.)

John's times were with a stopwatch. But he ran those times so many laps in a row that I doubt there was much operator error.

I still think that you will in the mid 20's when you get your car sorted.

Jamo,

The apex for nine is is after the dip. Just think about turning in at the point that you have run out of road on the entry. In other words, you make the corner square by turning in very late and picking up the throttle at the turn in, not at the apex. This works for me. (But, cavat emptor, it sometimes puts you in the nasty bits if you do not get it right.)

Jamo · #18 (**permalink**) 03-06-2003, 09:37 PM

Richard

That sounds like it's a bit high on the pucker factor meter--but I'll pay attention to that next time. Once I get the motor and suspension broken in a little, wouldn't mind meeting you out there for a little instruction.

coyled · #19 (**permalink**) 03-07-2003, 09:16 AM

Richard, thanks for the comments. Are you saying that you have a little bit less speed and can then turn in later, square the car, and get the throttle flat before the apex? When I try to turn in, even late, I have a hard time getting the car squared as it is drifting and pushing a little. Gets worse, the earlier I am flat out. I have not been in the dirt at the exit yet so I guess I have more room. Scott

Richard Hudgins · #20 (**permalink**) 03-10-2003, 07:40 PM

Hi Scott,

I have found that it is better to give up a little entry speed on 9 to gain speed on the straight.

This is not a seat of the pants thing. It came through telemetry readings in a FA car. (I know a Ralt and a Cobra are two entirely different beasts, but the psyhics are the same.)

We picked up .45 seconds a lap by reducing entry speed and allowing a early throttle pickup in 9.

(Now I know folks are going bring up things like trail braking, etc, etc. However, we did a bunch of testing and this works. Not to mention doing the same sort of thing in turn one. I seems that most folks brake way too early, and apex too early to get the proper speed through the turn and they sacifice exit speed.)