Fantastic IFS For Butler Cobra

[lal Naja]

Hi Fellow Butler owners,

I've been searching for an upgrade suspension that would replace the old & tired MGB setup for a number of years. Well I found it and it's installed.

I had to make a minor modifications to the chassis, Elongate four holes in the new crossmember that took 30 minutes, remove a corner of the fibreglass inner cowl and a new aluminum 27" long steering shaft makes the connection from the new rack to the steering column. I'm so looking forward to driving the car when the weather in Chicago improves.

I believe that this is the best suspension upgrade you can find and the weight is about 80 lbs. lighter.

I've included a link to the site. If you call Ted, Mention my name, He has been most helpful in the process and is a thorough gentleman.

FAST CARS, Inc HOME PAGE

Arthur Mitchell

[nevermind65]

Hello,

If you don't mind me asking, how much did that front end set-up cost? It looks like they have different brake options. Which did you go with?

Thanks.

[lal Naja]

The front end costs a few good bucks and more than I wanted to spend. I do not think you can accomplish anything as good for the cost of $3,825.00

I did not know about, nor did I ask for any any special brake option, I took the package as it came.

I have some photos of the suspension installed in the car and I can send them to your email. I have problems uploading them to the Forum. I plan on taking more detailed shots and putting together a written description of the simple modifications that need to be done in order fit the unit. It will be a couple of weeks befor I have that ready.

Regards,

Arthur

[nevermind65]

I noticed the different brake rotors on their website when looking at the front end assembly. I see now that the only difference is some of the pics show the rotor drilled, and some show it as a solid.

Thanks.

[SoTxButler]

Arthur,

I have been talking to Ted and today, I sent him a deposit to start on a front-end for my car. I know he has spoken with you. I sent him the notes on the install that you sent me. This should turn out well.

Thanks for turning me on to Fast Cars and Ted is a really nice guy.

Russ

[lal Naja]

Russ, Congratulations on your new Fast Cars IFS.

Happened to talk to Ted today and told him that I will review my installation and advise him on all the details.

Also spoke to him last week about the wider unit he makes. The shock towers on the wider unit are the same width as the narrow unit that I have, and that will still require the minor chassis or tower modification. I will measure to see if the wider unit will clear the fender flares, the wider may be the better option as you won't have to use wheel spacers as I have to. Wider would be better anyway. What size rims, back spacing & tires are you using?

I also have a couple other suggestions that may eliminate the chassis modification altogether. I will discuss this with him during the next couple of days.

You are having the complete front end chrome plated? WOW!

Arthur

[n6opv]

Just curious, since the mounting plates for the front suspension in the Butlers are tilted back for additional castor (as compared to the MGB), are you ending up with too much? How does this affect the rest of the suspension (anti-dive and camber change)? Is the suspension adjustable enough to compensate? Do they offer pin drive hubs for the original (or Jongbloed) style 6-pin wheels?

Jason

UPDATE: The front suspension mounting plate is not tilted back any more than the stock MGB. See my post below for details.

[lal Naja]

Jason, The angle of the Butler mounting plate is exactly the same angle of the MGB.

What is different is as follows: The Fast Cars shock-tower horns are 3/8" narrrower than the Butler chassis. I had to cut two small wedges into the chassis to clear the horns. I will weld and box these in.

The four bolting holes in the Butler Chassis do not align exactly with the MGB chassis bolt pattern. I had to elongate the holes in the new crossmsmber for an exact fit, pretty easy to do with a round file.

The Butler MGB suspension is 5/8" wider hub to hub. I will be using concentric spacers to compensate for this.

I cut the bottom corner off the engine bay bottom fiberglass cowl for a straight shot connection from the new rack to the existing MGB steering column. I did not want to have the intermediate steering shaft that the Butler has.

I will be taking measurements and advising Ted at Fast Cars about possible changes that he can make. He will be doing an installation for Russ, and it may be worth his time, should he want to undertake it, to do a couple of modifications to accommodate for the Butler installation. Butler Cobra's may also benifit by using the 2" wider suspension. But again, I need to take the time to evaluate all of this during the couple weeks as my shop is a bit busy.

It's possible that my findings and suggestions may make this a stright bolt on swap providing other Butler Cobra's are using the Butler specified wheel sizes & tires.

I do not know anything about your wheels. Check all dimensions and then Check with Ted to see if he can obtain appropriate hubs.

I can send you pictures to your email if you want to see what I'm doing. I have not been able to upload them to this Forum site.

Hope I have been able to help.

Arthur

[n6opv]

Arthur,

Thanks for the additional information. I've seen this IFS for a couple years now but never looked into it further since the modified MGB unit I'm building will be far more than I need for a fast street car.

Originally Posted by lal Naja

Jason, The angle of the Butler mounting plate is exactly the same angle of the MGB.

My bad You are correct. There's been a rumor for years that the Arntz/Butler front suspension mounting pad was tilted back 3 degrees to increase the castor to about 6-7 degrees. This was actually printed in Arntz technical literature and in a magazine article about the car. It seemed reasonable enough and I never bothered to check... until I just read a tech article on the Fast Cars IFS, then verified it a couple other places (including my car). Stock MGB castor is 6-7 degrees and remains that in the Arntz/Butler cars. The mounting plate is at 10 degrees to the frame.

Originally Posted by lal Naja

I cut the bottom corner off the engine bay bottom fiberglass cowl for a straight shot connection from the new rack to the existing MGB steering column. I did not want to have the intermediate steering shaft that the Butler has.

I'm not able to picture this... You need some sort of intermediate shaft and 2 u-joints to connect the rack to the column. The Butler only has one short intermediate but the MGB rack has a long shaft to start with. Are you just using one longer intermediate to reach all the way to the rack?

Originally Posted by lal Naja

I do not know anything about your wheels. Check all dimensions and then Check with Ted to see if he can obtain appropriate hubs.

The original pin drive wheels have 6 pins on the rear to locate and a knockoff. These are the wheels that Russ has (the reason I asked actually). They would require a special hub and probably some modifications to be fit to the Fast Cars IFS. They are not the same as the 5 pin that use bolt on adapters.

Originally Posted by lal Naja

I can send you pictures to your email if you want to see what I'm doing. I have not been able to upload them to this Forum site.

Certainly! I'll PM you for that. I'm pictureless too ever since the Club Cobra site came back up. And I have no avatar and no profile either Not sure what happened... at least I can post again.

Jason

[lal Naja]

I'm not able to picture this... You need some sort of intermediate shaft and 2 u-joints to connect the rack to the column. The Butler only has one short intermediate but the MGB rack has a long shaft to start with. Are you just using one longer intermediate to reach all the way to the rack?

Jason, With regard to your question above. On the Butler, the MGB rack and pinion has a long rougly 20" steering shaft that connects to a roughly 10" intermediate shaft that connects to the steering column. The MGB steering shaft from the rack is located between the chassis and the inner fiberglass cowl. There is about 1 1/8" of vertical space between the chassis and the cowel where it enters into the engine bay and connects to the intermediate shaft. This is how mine was.

One other important detail to keep in mind. Your car would not have it, unless you designed and installed it. And that is a custom bracket and Heim-Joint to support the top of the MGB rack shaft. This is an essential piece of steering engineering. See my pictures on this forum.

My new intermediate shaft is 27" long and connects directly from the steering column to the Fast Cars rack. The angle of this connection is now different and the angle of the 27" shaft is lower than the original setup. (The MGB rack shaft is at a higher angle) The Fast Cars rack is also a few inches maybe 3 inches lower than the MGB rack and the pinion is a litter closer to the center of the car, say 1". So to make a direct connection from the steering column and the rack I choose to cut the cowl and eliminate another U-Joint. I will remold this cutout section with new fiberglass.

Hope my explanation is clear.

Regards,

Arthur

[rdorman]

That looks like a good one! There is also Hawk and I am fairly sure the front suspension from Unique will bolt in.

[lal Naja]

I looked at the Hawk, but I would never consider it as a viable option. It maintains too-much of the old MGB technology. Kingpins being one and the weight factor being another.

Unique was another possibility, but Fast Cars is a three hour drive for me. I was able to inspect it, measure, make templates then return home to engineer my fit. The hospitality at Fast Cars was immeasurable when undertaking a project like this. I'm sure the Unique would not be as light too.

[n6opv]

Arthur,

Got it. I thought you had somehow come up with a way to eliminate the intermediate shaft altogether and only have the one u-joint That sounds like it should be a much nicer setup. Thanks for the clarification.

Jason

Originally Posted by lal Naja

My new intermediate shaft is 27" long and connects directly from the steering column to the Fast Cars rack. The angle of this connection is now different and the angle of the 27" shaft is lower than the original setup. (The MGB rack shaft is at a higher angle) The Fast Cars rack is also a few inches maybe 3 inches lower than the MGB rack and the pinion is a litter closer to the center of the car, say 1". So to make a direct connection from the steering column and the rack I choose to cut the cowl and eliminate another U-Joint. I will remold this cutout section with new fiberglass.

Hope my explanation is clear.

[SoTxButler]

Arthur,

I got a phone call from Ted today and he says he cannot deliver a chromed front end, not even chromed control arms and spindles. Naturally I am disappointed, but a silver one like the one on his site will be just fine.

How is your car coming along? Hope things are going well.

[lal Naja]

It's always disappointing when you can't have something you see in your vision. I could see some of the complications with plating. I'm not partial to chroming structural components anyway due to Hydrogen imbrittlement. If the plater does not do the post chrome baking properly, cracking can be an issue.

My car is coming along just fine. A lot of re-do's. I've just added fuel injection and totally remade the wiring harness to fit the car perfectly. I'm also redoing the original harness so it can be an easy unplug when I dismantle to paint. And changing where the wires exit the dash and firewall for neater look. Have to add a return fuel line too.

Installing two heaters that I just bought from Ron Butler and a roll bar.

I'm Thinking of dumping the MGB steering column and installing one from Flaming River. Just started doing the research yesterday when my indicator switch broke and I cannot find a new one to buy.

Still have to bent and fit the Stock Car Products, Aluminum 38 spline anti-sway bars arms to Teds suspension.
Changing the position of the rear sway bar, also 38 spline. Have to drill a 1 1/4" hole through the chassis from left to right and weld in a DOM steel tube through which the sway bar will run. This will be a cool setup and changing bars (front and rear) to tune the suspension will be a fast breeze.

Then I start the body work. A lot left to do, but I'm so glad to be working fulltime on the car after a long 19 year break.

Good luck with your upgrade. Your car looks pretty cool now and from what I hear about Ted's front the car will love the upgrade too.

Regards,

Arthur

[SoTxButler]

Arthur,

I will be going through the Chicago area on the way to Ted's place in April. Will be at Ted's on April 7th, so will be going through there on April 6th. I will be back in Michigan on April 18th to pick up the car. I will then drive back through the Chicago area on either the 18th or 19th on my way back to Houston.

Where in Chicago do you live? North, South, East or West? We might be able to meet for a minute.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by SoTxButler

Arthur,

I will be going through the Chicago area on the way to Ted's place in April. Will be at Ted's on April 7th, so will be going through there on April 6th. I will be back in Michigan on April 18th to pick up the car. I will then drive back through the Chicago area on either the 18th or 19th on my way back to Houston.

Where in Chicago do you live? North, South, East or West? We might be able to meet for a minute.

Russ, I only just found this post from you. Weird? I would have loved to have got together, so sorry to have missed it. If you're ever this way again please let me know. Cell phone 773-263-3496. I live ten minutes from Down-town on the North side. Regards, Arthur