Dyno run

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

Very RESPECTABLE numbers Boxhead....Look forward to seeing the future developement!!!

Now I've just noticed your account has been Suspended ,after the little spat on LS1 with Chipmaster .....A bit week when you can't call into question suppliers of performance gear...and you were as it was only quoting your experience....gota say i'm on your side with this one!!!

Old Yesterday, 05:16 PM
boxhead boxhead is offline
Account Suspended

You say it is a bit weak what has happened but I think you all need to read what has been posted over there on the LS1 forums and get the facts before everyone jumps on board and bags out sponsors/tuners.

I for one feel it is every tuners right to 'Lock' an ECU after tuning it as you don't want some Dumbass newbie tuner stealing all you hard earned knowledge/IP and selling it off as his. So buyer beware when having your tune locked by them - but they all will unlock it and put the tune back to standard.

But the point that needs to be made on this particular event is that the ECU was not locked by the Tuner (chipmaster) as he clearly stated on the other forum that it was tuned with his proprietary software. This meant that it could not be read by EFILIVE or HP's but if EFILIVE was available he could make it flash back in a base tune.

You paid for a Mail-order tune and you received one, and a bloody good one as the numbers you are pulling there seem to be right where a cammed 6.0L should be (but we wont go there - hold my tongue). I don't think you have the right to continually bag him out and then also do it in a public place for all to see. It is best to speak to the person responsible and resolve it with him. You said he offered to return it to stock for free. He has basically given you all he can.

If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier.

I know of a fair few guys on here who have been in the situation of wanting a tune to start their car and have it running but with the likelihood of further tuning and they have done the research and are now happy with the service they have receive from their respective tuners.

So if you want to warn others do it short and sweet - tell people to watch out for locked tunes or for PCM's tuned with proprietary software - there is no need to name names as he clearly did nothing wrong .. don't drag it on whinging all the way. No one wants to see anyone ripped off and clearly you weren't.



....... now i wait for the responses

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

You say it is a bit weak what has happened but I think you all need to read what has been posted over there on the LS1 forums and get the facts before everyone jumps on board and bags out sponsors/tuners.

I for one feel it is every tuners right to 'Lock' an ECU after tuning it as you don't want some Dumbass newbie tuner stealing all you hard earned knowledge/IP and selling it off as his. So buyer beware when having your tune locked by them - but they all will unlock it and put the tune back to standard.

But the point that needs to be made on this particular event is that the ECU was not locked by the Tuner (chipmaster) as he clearly stated on the other forum that it was tuned with his proprietary software. This meant that it could not be read by EFILIVE or HP's but if EFILIVE was available he could make it flash back in a base tune.

You paid for a Mail-order tune and you received one, and a bloody good one as the numbers you are pulling there seem to be right where a cammed 6.0L should be (but we wont go there - hold my tongue). I don't think you have the right to continually bag him out and then also do it in a public place for all to see. It is best to speak to the person responsible and resolve it with him. You said he offered to return it to stock for free. He has basically given you all he can.

If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier.

I know of a fair few guys on here who have been in the situation of wanting a tune to start their car and have it running but with the likelihood of further tuning and they have done the research and are now happy with the service they have receive from their respective tuners.

So if you want to warn others do it short and sweet - tell people to watch out for locked tunes or for PCM's tuned with proprietary software - there is no need to name names as he clearly did nothing wrong .. don't drag it on whinging all the way. No one wants to see anyone ripped off and clearly you weren't.



....... now i wait for the responses

DoubleDip, Thanks for your opinion (even though it was not asked for.
At no stage during all of my posts on LS1.com.au did I bag the guy who did the job, and as you have noted I did infact sing his praises regarding such good numbers.
What I did do was try to make my point that I specified what my needs and future intentions where, yet he still happily did th etune and took my money, knowing fully that by doing so my future needs could not be achieved.

I would rather he have said, "Sorry I cant do it as only my software will be able to access it in the future".

In regards to it being locked, my initial phone call to him from Mildura he said it was locked for his own protection, then early in the LS1 thread (I cant go back and check until 7.00am tomorrow) I am sure he said it was locked.
Then later he claims it is not locked but can not be accessed due to his Special Operating System (so is as good as locked), even though he knew I needed to access it later.

How can you claim I was not ripped off? I advised the seller what I wanted, he supplied me the goods, it was later found that what was supplied was not what was asked for.

Once again DoubleDip, I thank you.
My issue is with ChipMaster, I raised the point with him privatly, with no success, so I did it publically in a forum where I knew he would be able to see my question and give me an answer, now you have managed to bring it up on a new forum, Thanks.

[Rebel1]

Ok Mr. Doubledip esquire. You invited the responses...this is mine:

It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect.

So there should be an expectation by the tuner that a cobra will eventually find it's way to a dyno in a locale handy to the owner.

I'm going to tell you this short and sweet (your terms). If I spend money with any supplier then what I buy becomes my property. I have paid for all the "hard earned knowledge/IP" involved, within the price. From that time forward if I wish to take my car to another tuner then it is my perogative to do what I wish with who I wish.

Let me also say this .... I spend money with suppliers who come across to potential clients as having the clients interests at heart. If you reflect on your own purchasing decisions I'll bet they don't differ much from mine.

So why do some folks in business have an attitude to tell potential clients what they can or cant do with their own property?. Because they are all so bound up in their own perceived importance/hard earned knowledge/ip etc., that they forget the needs of the client.

Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

You might like to keep the last paragraph in mind.

[Plums]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

I'm going to tell you this short and sweet (your terms). If I spend money with any supplier then what I buy becomes my property. I have paid for all the "hard earned knowledge/IP" involved, within the price. From that time forward if I wish to take my car to another tuner then it is my perogative to do what I wish with who I wish.

This is the exact reason I ask the customer if they want it locked or not. If they do not want it locked, I just leave out some of my "secret stuff". If they want it locked, I will put everything in it. Generally, people get the programs locked so that the Holden dealer can't flash over it, (wipe the tune back to standard)...
If somebody had bought the software themselves to tune their own Cobra, I would leave it unlocked and even teach them how to fine tune it... In fact, I offered this to Aussie Mike and I think he will eventually get the software one day!!!

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Plums

This is the exact reason I ask the customer if they want it locked or not. If they do not want it locked, I just leave out some of my "secret stuff". If they want it locked, I will put everything in it. Generally, people get the programs locked so that the Holden dealer can't flash over it, (wipe the tune back to standard)...
If somebody had bought the software themselves to tune their own Cobra, I would leave it unlocked and even teach them how to fine tune it... In fact, I offered this to Aussie Mike and I think he will eventually get the software one day!!!

And that is why I the customer am not happy.
I requested Vts off, and Maf gone, did not ask for any "secret stuff" but did advise requirement of being able to adjust later, this part of my request was ignored.

Please Bobby, dont think I am having a go at you personally, But if an end user buys a product they have every reason to expect full use of that product.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by Plums

If somebody had bought the software themselves to tune their own Cobra, I would leave it unlocked and even teach them how to fine tune it... In fact, I offered this to Aussie Mike and I think he will eventually get the software one day!!!

I've sung Bobby's praises many times on this forum and via word of mouth (although I think my singing voice is better apreciated in print).

Bobby knew I was a compulsive modifier/tinkerer from the start and locking the ECU was definitely brought up during our tune discussions. Bobby knew I would want to modify the thing later and knew I would probably want to have a play with the tuning myself one day so he left the ECU unlocked. He has always been forthcoming with useful tuning knowledge. I know when I do have a go myself he'll bee there to help.

Yes, one day I'll buy the tuning software and mess around with it myself but to date Bobby has done such a good job with his mailorder tune I haven't needed to.

Unfortunately LS1 tuning has become a bit of a comodity amongst the big shops. They figure a tune up is like bolting on another accessory. It's easy money since the tune from one car is going to be much like another. All the work and development was done on the first few cars and the rest is money for Jam. More power to them if you can make money. This aproach might be fine for the guy in the street with an SS Commodore but Cobras are a bit different.

Most Cobra owners are a bit more mechanically and technically savvy than the average commodore punter. Cars are often hand built by their owners with careful selection or fabrication of components. With that in mind you are best to hook up with a tuner that will work with you to get the best from you car. Someone like Bobby.

I think Daniel at Chipmaster has shown a keen interest in keeping the LS1 tune as a comodity rather than a service.

I also think the LS1.com.au forum has shown a keen interest in keeping its sponsors happy.

Cheers

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Ok Mr. Doubledip esquire. You invited the responses...this is mine:

It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect.

So there should be an expectation by the tuner that a cobra will eventually find it's way to a dyno in a locale handy to the owner.

I'm going to tell you this short and sweet (your terms). If I spend money with any supplier then what I buy becomes my property. I have paid for all the "hard earned knowledge/IP" involved, within the price. From that time forward if I wish to take my car to another tuner then it is my perogative to do what I wish with who I wish.

Let me also say this .... I spend money with suppliers who come across to potential clients as having the clients interests at heart. If you reflect on your own purchasing decisions I'll bet they don't differ much from mine.

So why do some folks in business have an attitude to tell potential clients what they can or cant do with their own property?. Because they are all so bound up in their own perceived importance/hard earned knowledge/ip etc., that they forget the needs of the client.

Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

You might like to keep the last paragraph in mind.

With your response i dont know where to start....

"It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. "

this bit here about your cobras are not off the showroom floor etc.. making it sound like some sort of super duper special car ... do you forget we are talking about a tune in a HOLDEN LS1 ENGINE ?????... the engine couldnt care what car it is in..


"Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect"

in response to the above you must have had your eye's closed when you read mine - "If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier."


keep in mind the last paragraph????? --- Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients



i didnt see anywhere in Dan's responses him being difficult... Boxhead had a problem... rang Dan... Dan said send ECU to me and i will put back to standard so you can tune it with VCM. no difficulties.. no extra charge for that. I understand that right there and then it could not happen but he was still willing to do. It was even stated on the other forum that if the tuner had EFI Live that dan could have helped over the phone and got them going.

As for Boxhead not getting what he wanted i think he did .. He ordered a mail order tune and recieved a mail order tune. As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except boxhead and dan. Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

With all of this forum *****ing which a fair few of you like to do and get up on you high horse and let rip .. all i am trying to say is you should never bad mouth a business on a public place like this.. there is no need unless someone has blindly ripped you off. (ie you payed dan money for him to send you a ecu/tune and you never physically recieved anything) . If you feel the need to warn others then do so just dont name names it is not needed. This sort of carry on hurts businesses and if the business suffers cause of a few words said by the keyboard warriors who may not at the time have understood or heard or even cared what the tuner was saying to them over the phone then that is unfair on them.

and boxhead says i have dragged it up again after the LS1 forum ???? your the one who started this thread.. so i didnt drag anything up again.

As for you being banned from the LS1 forum.. maybe yes for continually questioning the forum sponsor about something , but may have been best dealt over the phone to him again once you had got home from the nationals.. I for one wouldnt have banned you... you were slowly digging yourself a hole over there with the carry on so it was fun to read.



And as Plums has just replied he understands where some one with a business is coming from and understands that certain tuning tweaks etc.. of the LSX ECU's is more than just the normal wolf and haltech tune.

once again flame away.. but take a deep breath first and think about what is the issue here... not ganging up and taking sides... and then just having a dig back at me..

[OZCOBRA]

Bottom line is right here....

As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except BOXHEAD AND DAN . Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

So that is why what the Mods did on LS1 was BS....They have taken what Dan has said to be gospel and beyond reproach...what ever you do don't Voice an opinion unless it's a positive one, if you do and we don't like it we'll just suspend your account ..thin skinned and certainly uncalled for!!!

Oz

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

With your response i dont know where to start....The beginning works well.

"It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. "

this bit here about your cobras are not off the showroom floor etc.. making it sound like some sort of super duper special car ... Ohhh please, this comment is not worth the effort of reply.

do you forget we are talking about a tune in a HOLDEN LS1 ENGINE ?????... the engine couldnt care what car it is in..

Ok, then why was the tune not correct?. Why was it too rich?. If as you say the engine couldn't care what car it is in, together with Dan's claimed expertise, then he should have got it right, first time...it's that simple. That's why we pay a premium to suppliers who are supposed to know what they are doing.


"Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect"

in response to the above you must have had your eye's closed when you read mine - "If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier."

Read Box's comments. Also refer to my comments about ownership and the ability to be able to change a tune at will.

keep in mind the last paragraph????? --- Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

i didnt see anywhere in Dan's responses him being difficult... Boxhead had a problem... rang Dan... Dan said send ECU to me and i will put back to standard so you can tune it with VCM. no difficulties.. no extra charge for that. I understand that right there and then it could not happen but he was still willing to do. It was even stated on the other forum that if the tuner had EFI Live that dan could have helped over the phone and got them going.
Yes, but did Dan offer to refund the $800.00 or whatever the original so called custom tune cost?. If not why not?. The mail order tune as supplied was not correct nor correctable.

As for Boxhead not getting what he wanted i think he did .. He ordered a mail order tune and recieved a mail order tune. As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except boxhead and dan. Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

Exactly, neither you nor myself know what was said which is why (if you care to read my post carefully) I didn't refer to any conversation. I simply referred to the fact that if a consumer purchases a product, then it is the property of that consumer and that consumer has the right to make whatever modifications he wishes to his property. If the ECU was locked then the consumer does not have free and full access to his property.

With all of this forum *****ing which a fair few of you like to do and get up on you high horse and let rip .. all i am trying to say is you should never bad mouth a business on a public place like this.. there is no need unless someone has blindly ripped you off. (ie you payed dan money for him to send you a ecu/tune and you never physically recieved anything) . If you feel the need to warn others then do so just dont name names it is not needed. This sort of carry on hurts businesses and if the business suffers cause of a few words said by the keyboard warriors who may not at the time have understood or heard or even cared what the tuner was saying to them over the phone then that is unfair on them.

Look at what you have said....the fact something was received but that something was not correct and nor was it accessible to make it correct, means that to the client that something may as well not turned up in the first place which is exactly what has happened here. The engine which doesn't care what car it is in is currently running on a loaned PCM and is now tuned to a level which exceeds that which was supplied in the first place. Furthermore, the loaned PCM can be retuned by its owner at will.

and boxhead says i have dragged it up again after the LS1 forum ???? your the one who started this thread.. so i didnt drag anything up again.

As for you being banned from the LS1 forum.. maybe yes for continually questioning the forum sponsor about something , but may have been best dealt over the phone to him again once you had got home from the nationals.. I for one wouldnt have banned you... you were slowly digging yourself a hole over there with the carry on so it was fun to read.

How many times must a client converse with a supplier to get satisfaction?. I'm led to believe a conversation did take place but not to the satisfaction of the client. See all of my previous comments. Full ownership of the product did not transfer to the client and that client COULD NOT correct the situation without both delay and further assistance of the supplier.

And as Plums has just replied he understands where some one with a business is coming from and understands that certain tuning tweaks etc.. of the LSX ECU's is more than just the normal wolf and haltech tune.

I don't know Plums but have found his contributions to this forum to be valuable. He himself has admitted that he gives his clients the option and that is the way it should be. He clearly has a much better trading ethic than the other supplier.

once again flame away.. but take a deep breath first and think about what is the issue here... not ganging up and taking sides... and then just having a dig back at me..

I'm not flaming anyone and nor do I need take a deep breath first. I merely offered my interpretation as a CONSUMER after I saw comments by other SUPPLIERS .... mainly youself.

I have purchased a tune for my L76 and paid less than half the reported $800.00 cost of the tune in question.

What it boils down to is this .... The supplier has provided a product which was not correct and unable to be made correct. On top of this the client has paid a PREMIUM for this so called service.

For what it is worth, I can advise the supplier has already lost at least two tunes from Queensland and I'm not one of them as I have no need for his service.....frankly having read what I have I wouldn't deal with him anyways. So that makes a total of three "lost" potential clients. Given the passage of time that two from SeQld could easilly be five.

There is a cost to business called opportunity cost just as there is opportunity income. This supplier has turned an opportunity income to a direct loss.

Sad ... very sad

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

Very RESPECTABLE numbers Boxhead....Look forward to seeing the future developement!!!

Now I've just noticed your account has been Suspended ,after the little spat on LS1 with Chipmaster .....A bit week when you can't call into question suppliers of performance gear...and you were as it was only quoting your experience....gota say i'm on your side with this one!!!

Old Yesterday, 05:16 PM
boxhead boxhead is offline
Account Suspended

Yes I have emailed the forum moderators and asked why my account was suspended.
When first suspended the note said breach of T&C (terms and conditions), I have a copy of there terms and conditions and can not see where I have breached them (I would obviously be lookeing with foggy glasses on) so if anyone who has read the thread has the time to check the T&C please let me know if I overstepped any boundarys (so I dont do it again)

[NASSTY]

Let me add as someone who has gone down the path of self tuning.

There is no real mystery to EFI. At the end of the day it's just about how much spark and fuel. Map the fuel to achieve your desired A/F ratio and map the ignition map for the timing. For a factory EFI most of the work has alreay been done. A tuner is just tidying up the mapping as most factory cars run too rich at WOT. This is because a factory car will need to operate in any conditions; such as hot weather towing a boat etc etc.

Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought. After that, tuners usually just charge for dyno time if you want a custom tune.

So where's the problem?

I have to agree with Les on this one especially the bit about the perceived self importance that some tuners convey to motorists.

[Plums]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

Let me add as someone who has gone down the path of self tuning.

There is no real mystery to EFI. At the end of the day it's just about how much spark and fuel. Map the fuel to achieve your desired A/F ratio and map the ignition map for the timing. For a factory EFI most of the work has alreay been done. A tuner is just tidying up the mapping as most factory cars run too rich at WOT. This is because a factory car will need to operate in any conditions; such as hot weather towing a boat etc etc.

Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought. After that, tuners usually just charge for dyno time if you want a custom tune.

So where's the problem?

I have to agree with Les on this one especially the bit about the perceived self importance that some tuners convey to motorists.

You are right, there's no real mystery to EFI tuning. For example, tuning a Wolf 3d or Motec ecu is fairly straight forward. Like you said, in a nutshell it's just fuel and spark.
Tuning the factory GM LS1 computer however, is a different story. Quote "For a factory EFI most of the work has alreay been done. A tuner is just tidying up the mapping as most factory cars run too rich at WOT." end quote. Most LS1 tunes these days tend to be MAFless. There are heaps of tables that need to be modified just to get it to run properly without the MAF. In fact, many tuners used to completely disable all Knock Retard just to get the engine to run with stable spark at WOT. Knock Retard is a valuable safety feature that should never be disabled (except perhaps on a race car).
Aside from normal MAFless tuning, try tuning a big head/cam car!!!

I completely disagree with this comment: "Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought."
Developing a tune can be done quickly, if you just copy a program that you've previously used. That's not tuning, that called copying!!!
Additionally, when I tune a PCM, the consumer is not paying for a software licence. I paid that years ago, the customer is just paying for my time and experience.

I believe that I have a right to keep my "secret stuff" to myself. I tell the customer that fact up front and then the choice is theirs. I will still provide an unlocked tune, it just won't be quite as fancy as my locked program.

Boxhead, a standard MAFless tune with VATS off and some different fan temps is nothing secret at all.....

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Plums

Boxhead, a standard MAFless tune with VATS off and some different fan temps is nothing secret at all.....

And that is what I the purchaser asked for, with the ability to adjust it later (which is something I would never have been able to do because of his "Special Operating System")

Daniel would have known this but he chose to ignore it and not advise me of it.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Plums

You are right, there's no real mystery to EFI tuning. For example, tuning a Wolf 3d or Motec ecu is fairly straight forward. Like you said, in a nutshell it's just fuel and spark.
Tuning the factory GM LS1 computer however, is a different story. Quote "For a factory EFI most of the work has alreay been done. A tuner is just tidying up the mapping as most factory cars run too rich at WOT." end quote. Most LS1 tunes these days tend to be MAFless. There are heaps of tables that need to be modified just to get it to run properly without the MAF. In fact, many tuners used to completely disable all Knock Retard just to get the engine to run with stable spark at WOT. Knock Retard is a valuable safety feature that should never be disabled (except perhaps on a race car).
Aside from normal MAFless tuning, try tuning a big head/cam car!!!

Firstly, I'm not having a go at any tuner on this forum. My comments are based on the experience I have had dealing with a few other "expert" tuners (not on this forum) who were full of it. From the testamonials of other forum users, the tuners on this forum don't fall into this catagory.

Originally Posted by Plums

I completely disagree with this comment: "Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought."
Developing a tune can be done quickly, if you just copy a program that you've previously used. That's not tuning, that called copying!!!
Additionally, when I tune a PCM, the consumer is not paying for a software licence. I paid that years ago, the customer is just paying for my time and experience

If an engine is not opened, as in Boxhead's case, then surely the starting point (or ending point in Boxhead's mail order tune) is a generic tune, of which all the tables etc that need to be modified have already been done.

I would expect that most tunes, perhaps the term should be generic tunes, are sold to customers who haven't opened up their engines yet. If that assumption is correct then most tunes start off as a generic copy, mafless or not. If someone then wanted to have a custom tune on top of that, again unopened engine, then I would have thought that that would mainly involve the main fuel map to be trimmed up, which wouldn't take too long on a dyno.

Once the engine has been opened then I entirely agree with you. This will sort out the real tuners from the posers. That's when experience will count.

While you paid for your license years ago, I was trying to suggest that the price of a tune has the setup cost, license and R&D, built into the price.

Originally Posted by Plums

I believe that I have a right to keep my "secret stuff" to myself. I tell the customer that fact up front and then the choice is theirs. I will still provide an unlocked tune, it just won't be quite as fancy as my locked program.

You give your customer a choice, nothing wrong with that.

[boxhead]

I am liking the idea of buying the tuning software myself more and more.

But on Monday I start the engineering approval process and sadly (although I dont mind) I have to remove my body as the engineer wants to see a bare rolling chassis.
This will give me a chance to line the engine bay with aluminium paneling.

So with a car that is running correctly I will not spend the money on software until it is needed, ie after rego and after engine upgrades.

So after carrying out the garden work on Saturday (promises made to SWMBO prior to Nationals) I will start removing the body.

[Rob. Smith]

Glad I got a Ford with points and a carby !

[NASSTY]

What can be overlooked is the timeframe of a cobra build. On average it's probably 3 yrs going onto five. Most don't get built in 12 months; perhaps unless you've done it before.

That's probably part of the problem here. The tune was ordered 3.5 yrs ago but most things have a 12 month warrantee. So long after you start driving the cobra the warrantee has expired. Some suppliers understand this, some won't.

Also, despite there only a small difference between the tunes, which at WOT is going to be hard to feel those extra kws, that's not perhaps the biggest problem. As an ICV the vehicle needs to pass an emissions test. If it's running rich at idle and part throttle it won't pass.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

What can be overlooked is the timeframe of a cobra build. On average it's probably 3 yrs going onto five. Most don't get built in 12 months; perhaps unless you've done it before.

That's probably part of the problem here. The tune was ordered 3.5 yrs ago but most things have a 12 month warrantee. So long after you start driving the cobra the warrantee has expired. Some suppliers understand this, some won't.

Also, despite there only a small difference between the tunes, which at WOT is going to be hard to feel those extra kws, that's not perhaps the biggest problem. As an ICV the vehicle needs to pass an emissions test. If it's running rich at idle and part throttle it won't pass.

I totally agree Al except I don't agree the build time has any bearing.

I feel that common sense on behalf of this supplier was lacking.

Firstly he was dealing with some-one 2000Klm away in woop woop, with little chance of dropping in for a retune at the suppliers shop.

Secondly, the car in question was not a "off the showroom" GMH model

It was a cobra which for all the reasons mentioned previously strongly suggests the car will end up on a dyno for a retune.

These three points alone suggest that the supplier should have had a reasonable expectation that an unlocked PCM was required.

Very poor service in my opinion.

[Rebel1]

Gawd, who voted me to be the consumer advocate here?

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

What can be overlooked is the timeframe of a cobra build. On average it's probably 3 yrs going onto five. Most don't get built in 12 months; perhaps unless you've done it before.

That's probably part of the problem here. The tune was ordered 3.5 yrs ago but most things have a 12 month warrantee. So long after you start driving the cobra the warrantee has expired. Some suppliers understand this, some won't.

Also, despite there only a small difference between the tunes, which at WOT is going to be hard to feel those extra kws, that's not perhaps the biggest problem. As an ICV the vehicle needs to pass an emissions test. If it's running rich at idle and part throttle it won't pass.

this here is not a dig but just a comment for others to read for the engineering side of things. In general if you have a ICV and as we know has to be engineered and now go through emissions testing then you need to fit a late model engine and all the accessories it ran in the production vehicle. This would mean a MAF so for starters the mafless tune would be no good boxhead recieved... so then regardless the tune running rich wont pass..

It would be better for those that are going through this stage at the time to get in contact with the end tuner and say once i have passed engineering , emissions blah blah blah and i am driving it i will be in for a Dyno tune. Then ask them to supply the standard tune in the ecu that the factory car had (all be it for VATS and fan temps and speedo ), but still retain the MAf O2,s etc... This way the engineer will be happy and so will the RTA/emissions testers.

Also i would feel it is best that these sorts of things are left right till the time they are needed... as earlier pointed out warranty runs out on a lot of things when building a ICV (a computer wont stop you building the car), so why help it by buying a computer and tune when you know it wont be used till 2.5 years down the track at the earliest.. the tuner could have even gone out of business before you first get to turn the key.

As I said this is just a warning for all not a dig at what Nasty has said.