Dyno run

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Ok Mr. Doubledip esquire. You invited the responses...this is mine:

It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect.

So there should be an expectation by the tuner that a cobra will eventually find it's way to a dyno in a locale handy to the owner.

I'm going to tell you this short and sweet (your terms). If I spend money with any supplier then what I buy becomes my property. I have paid for all the "hard earned knowledge/IP" involved, within the price. From that time forward if I wish to take my car to another tuner then it is my perogative to do what I wish with who I wish.

Let me also say this .... I spend money with suppliers who come across to potential clients as having the clients interests at heart. If you reflect on your own purchasing decisions I'll bet they don't differ much from mine.

So why do some folks in business have an attitude to tell potential clients what they can or cant do with their own property?. Because they are all so bound up in their own perceived importance/hard earned knowledge/ip etc., that they forget the needs of the client.

Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

You might like to keep the last paragraph in mind.

With your response i dont know where to start....

"It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. "

this bit here about your cobras are not off the showroom floor etc.. making it sound like some sort of super duper special car ... do you forget we are talking about a tune in a HOLDEN LS1 ENGINE ?????... the engine couldnt care what car it is in..


"Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect"

in response to the above you must have had your eye's closed when you read mine - "If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier."


keep in mind the last paragraph????? --- Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients



i didnt see anywhere in Dan's responses him being difficult... Boxhead had a problem... rang Dan... Dan said send ECU to me and i will put back to standard so you can tune it with VCM. no difficulties.. no extra charge for that. I understand that right there and then it could not happen but he was still willing to do. It was even stated on the other forum that if the tuner had EFI Live that dan could have helped over the phone and got them going.

As for Boxhead not getting what he wanted i think he did .. He ordered a mail order tune and recieved a mail order tune. As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except boxhead and dan. Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

With all of this forum *****ing which a fair few of you like to do and get up on you high horse and let rip .. all i am trying to say is you should never bad mouth a business on a public place like this.. there is no need unless someone has blindly ripped you off. (ie you payed dan money for him to send you a ecu/tune and you never physically recieved anything) . If you feel the need to warn others then do so just dont name names it is not needed. This sort of carry on hurts businesses and if the business suffers cause of a few words said by the keyboard warriors who may not at the time have understood or heard or even cared what the tuner was saying to them over the phone then that is unfair on them.

and boxhead says i have dragged it up again after the LS1 forum ???? your the one who started this thread.. so i didnt drag anything up again.

As for you being banned from the LS1 forum.. maybe yes for continually questioning the forum sponsor about something , but may have been best dealt over the phone to him again once you had got home from the nationals.. I for one wouldnt have banned you... you were slowly digging yourself a hole over there with the carry on so it was fun to read.



And as Plums has just replied he understands where some one with a business is coming from and understands that certain tuning tweaks etc.. of the LSX ECU's is more than just the normal wolf and haltech tune.

once again flame away.. but take a deep breath first and think about what is the issue here... not ganging up and taking sides... and then just having a dig back at me..

[OZCOBRA]

Bottom line is right here....

As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except BOXHEAD AND DAN . Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

So that is why what the Mods did on LS1 was BS....They have taken what Dan has said to be gospel and beyond reproach...what ever you do don't Voice an opinion unless it's a positive one, if you do and we don't like it we'll just suspend your account ..thin skinned and certainly uncalled for!!!

Oz

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

So that is why what the Mods did on LS1 was BS....They have taken what Dan has said to be gospel and beyond reproach...what ever you do don't Voice an opinion unless it's a positive one, if you do and we don't like it we'll just suspend your account ..thin skinned and certainly uncalled for!!!

Oz

As i said i would have left his account open but it was probably cause where the whole thread was heading it was best left to be sorted behind the scenes between boxhead and dan not out in the open. But who cares thats not what all this is about .. it was about whether boxhead got what he asked for and whether he wasted his money... he asked for mail order he got mail order.. if he had to get another tuner to tune it then the only extra money out of all this he spent unnecessarily would be the difference off the 2nd tuners touch up tune and the 2nd tuners full tune from standard ECU... not the full cost of $800 or what ever figure flaunted around.

[OZCOBRA]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

but it was probably cause where the whole thread was heading it was best left to be sorted behind the scenes between boxhead and dan not out in the open.

No prob's agree...

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

he asked for mail order he got mail order..

My understanding is that he asked for mail order that could fine tuned locally to him. He got mail order that could not be modified by anyone but a guy 2000km away. Seems like a pretty simple case of not getting what you asked and paid for to me.

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by Tenrocca

My understanding is that he asked for mail order that could fine tuned locally to him. He got mail order that could not be modified by anyone but a guy 2000km away. Seems like a pretty simple case of not getting what you asked and paid for to me.

for a start that is what he says he asked for.. - i stated previously my opinion of other outcomes... but also Tenrocca you would know about OZtrack and his tunes.... although he offers remote tuning i bet if i got a VE tune (not mail order as TCM in gearbox ) from him and also requested that i might get someone else to tune it after him he most prob wont do as he locks his tunes so you cant read them... and so he should he has spent countless hours tuning these for the prefect settings and thats just it protecting his IP

[LoBelly]

Originally Posted by sideshow

anyway i will speak to my solicitor just to get a rough idea on where companies stand with forums

so i can be careful with what i post and warn others with what they post

Well if you're in Victoria (or a statement you made is published in Victoria) you can get a rough guide by looking at the Law Institue of Victoria web site:

http://www.liv.asn.au/public/legalin...-Defamati.html

-love google-
of particular interest to Boxhead might be this bit :

• Justification/Contextual truth
  This is a complete defence in Victoria, regardless of how damaging a statement may be to a person's reputation

I understand that other states have other defences (like a requirement that there be some public interest).

Also, sideshow's post demonstrates the fluid and variable nature peoples views regarding the fruits of other peoples labours, particularly when contasted with the post below.

Originally Posted by Doubledip

he locks his tunes so you cant read them... and so he should he has spent countless hours tuning these for the prefect settings and thats just it protecting his IP

So it appears that is perfectly fine to freely distribute the opinion of a solicitor who has spent countless hours developing his opinions and understanding of the law but it is also perfectly ok to lock a tune on the basis that you've spent countless hours developing it



LoBelly

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

With your response i dont know where to start....The beginning works well.

"It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. "

this bit here about your cobras are not off the showroom floor etc.. making it sound like some sort of super duper special car ... Ohhh please, this comment is not worth the effort of reply.

do you forget we are talking about a tune in a HOLDEN LS1 ENGINE ?????... the engine couldnt care what car it is in..

Ok, then why was the tune not correct?. Why was it too rich?. If as you say the engine couldn't care what car it is in, together with Dan's claimed expertise, then he should have got it right, first time...it's that simple. That's why we pay a premium to suppliers who are supposed to know what they are doing.


"Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect"

in response to the above you must have had your eye's closed when you read mine - "If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier."

Read Box's comments. Also refer to my comments about ownership and the ability to be able to change a tune at will.

keep in mind the last paragraph????? --- Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

i didnt see anywhere in Dan's responses him being difficult... Boxhead had a problem... rang Dan... Dan said send ECU to me and i will put back to standard so you can tune it with VCM. no difficulties.. no extra charge for that. I understand that right there and then it could not happen but he was still willing to do. It was even stated on the other forum that if the tuner had EFI Live that dan could have helped over the phone and got them going.
Yes, but did Dan offer to refund the $800.00 or whatever the original so called custom tune cost?. If not why not?. The mail order tune as supplied was not correct nor correctable.

As for Boxhead not getting what he wanted i think he did .. He ordered a mail order tune and recieved a mail order tune. As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except boxhead and dan. Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

Exactly, neither you nor myself know what was said which is why (if you care to read my post carefully) I didn't refer to any conversation. I simply referred to the fact that if a consumer purchases a product, then it is the property of that consumer and that consumer has the right to make whatever modifications he wishes to his property. If the ECU was locked then the consumer does not have free and full access to his property.

With all of this forum *****ing which a fair few of you like to do and get up on you high horse and let rip .. all i am trying to say is you should never bad mouth a business on a public place like this.. there is no need unless someone has blindly ripped you off. (ie you payed dan money for him to send you a ecu/tune and you never physically recieved anything) . If you feel the need to warn others then do so just dont name names it is not needed. This sort of carry on hurts businesses and if the business suffers cause of a few words said by the keyboard warriors who may not at the time have understood or heard or even cared what the tuner was saying to them over the phone then that is unfair on them.

Look at what you have said....the fact something was received but that something was not correct and nor was it accessible to make it correct, means that to the client that something may as well not turned up in the first place which is exactly what has happened here. The engine which doesn't care what car it is in is currently running on a loaned PCM and is now tuned to a level which exceeds that which was supplied in the first place. Furthermore, the loaned PCM can be retuned by its owner at will.

and boxhead says i have dragged it up again after the LS1 forum ???? your the one who started this thread.. so i didnt drag anything up again.

As for you being banned from the LS1 forum.. maybe yes for continually questioning the forum sponsor about something , but may have been best dealt over the phone to him again once you had got home from the nationals.. I for one wouldnt have banned you... you were slowly digging yourself a hole over there with the carry on so it was fun to read.

How many times must a client converse with a supplier to get satisfaction?. I'm led to believe a conversation did take place but not to the satisfaction of the client. See all of my previous comments. Full ownership of the product did not transfer to the client and that client COULD NOT correct the situation without both delay and further assistance of the supplier.

And as Plums has just replied he understands where some one with a business is coming from and understands that certain tuning tweaks etc.. of the LSX ECU's is more than just the normal wolf and haltech tune.

I don't know Plums but have found his contributions to this forum to be valuable. He himself has admitted that he gives his clients the option and that is the way it should be. He clearly has a much better trading ethic than the other supplier.

once again flame away.. but take a deep breath first and think about what is the issue here... not ganging up and taking sides... and then just having a dig back at me..

I'm not flaming anyone and nor do I need take a deep breath first. I merely offered my interpretation as a CONSUMER after I saw comments by other SUPPLIERS .... mainly youself.

I have purchased a tune for my L76 and paid less than half the reported $800.00 cost of the tune in question.

What it boils down to is this .... The supplier has provided a product which was not correct and unable to be made correct. On top of this the client has paid a PREMIUM for this so called service.

For what it is worth, I can advise the supplier has already lost at least two tunes from Queensland and I'm not one of them as I have no need for his service.....frankly having read what I have I wouldn't deal with him anyways. So that makes a total of three "lost" potential clients. Given the passage of time that two from SeQld could easilly be five.

There is a cost to business called opportunity cost just as there is opportunity income. This supplier has turned an opportunity income to a direct loss.

Sad ... very sad

[Doubledip]

Ok, then why was the tune not correct?. Why was it too rich?. If as you say the engine couldn't care what car it is in, together with Dan's claimed expertise, then he should have got it right, first time...it's that simple. That's why we pay a premium to suppliers who are supposed to know what they are doing

if you used common sense you would know (and i am sure you do) that you couldnt ever send a spot on mail order tune. It would always have a bit of fat in it to run on the safe side, otherwise you would be up for holed pistons etc... ( but i guess that from mail order to full tune and a diff of 6rwkw in your book is an incorrect tune)

and i pointed out the engine doesnt care what car it is in because you seemed to make a point that cause it was in a mail order cobra that it would be different to mail order commodore cause the commodore came of the showroom floor where as the cobra didnt.


I have purchased a tune for my L76 and paid less than half the reported $800.00 cost of the tune in question - thats what a mail order should be... the price for this tune in this thread has ranged from 400 to 600 to 800.. it just keeps growing so that is why i only take the "what he said, she said" of what the customer asked for and was given with a grain of salt.

this far into this thread i would also like to point out that i am not a fan of Dan at chipmaster. I have not had any good or bad experiences, my gripe with this thread is more about the rubbishing of someones business/livelihood.. which is still going on in your post.

Fine be angry that it was locked. tell people to be aware and to look out for tuners that lock them or use proprietary software to read/write to them but dont bring their names into it and drag them through the mud. as you have just pointed out it has cost him possible income for basically someone feeling they didnt get what they paid for when they did and that was a mafless mail order tune with vats removed. (plus he was willing to put back to standard so it could be tuned else where)

[Rebel1]

Well I guess that just illustrates to the reading public exactly what your trading standards are as a supplier.

That's fine.

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Well I guess that just illustrates to the reading public exactly what your trading standards are as a supplier.

That's fine.

yes good reply Rebel1...

I am sure you wouldnt like me carrying on about a business of yours in a public place if i had an issue - you would rather have me try and resolve it behind clossed doors and give you a chance to make it righ or have me understand the reasoning behind what i felt was incorrect - which dan pointed out he did on numerours occasions.

regardless of whether it was right or wrong do you feel it hasbeen handled by boxhead appropriately in a public forum?

but i guess its easier to come onto a forum where everyone can just jump in and put rubbish on someone and not have to face that person in real life.

------------------


and for the record - my stance as a supplier - if we supply something and you are not happy with it then come back to us and let us resolve it. not have the client make one phone call to us and then bag us out over 2 forums.

so for the reading public, the guys on this forum that we have done work for will know what our trading standards are, and there are many of those that have moved on from old ride to a newer one have got us back to carry out the work on it. So once again warn people about things to look out for but dont bring business names into it.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

yes good reply Rebel1...

I am sure you wouldnt like me carrying on about a business of yours in a public place if i had an issue - you would rather have me try and resolve it behind clossed doors and give you a chance to make it righ or have me understand the reasoning behind what i felt was incorrect - which dan pointed out he did on numerours occasions.

There would be no opportunity for you to carry on about my business Doubledip because if I was a supplier I would not get involved in some other suppliers dispute. I'd just shut my mouth as whatever i say I would offend some percentage of the viewing public.

regardless of whether it was right or wrong do you feel it hasbeen handled by boxhead appropriately in a public forum?

Yes I do.

but i guess its easier to come onto a forum where everyone can just jump in and put rubbish on someone and not have to face that person in real life.

Doubledip I find this comment offensive. Unlike the LS1 forums this place is frequented by mature sensible folks. I can't remember the last "spirited debate" or even anyone getting their nose out of joint.

In fact, despite deliberate and frequent baiting one can hardly raise an objection from anyone.

and for the record - my stance as a supplier - if we supply something and you are not happy with it then come back to us and let us resolve it. not have the client make one phone call to us and then bag us out over 2 forums.

Resolve it to who's satisfaction? ... yours or the client?. One phone call by a dis-satisfied client should be enough to trigger more than casual attention by a supplier.

so for the reading public, the guys on this forum that we have done work for will know what our trading standards are, and there are many of those that have moved on from old ride to a newer one have got us back to carry out the work on it. So once again warn people about things to look out for but dont bring business names into it.

Again Doubledip, you were not the supplier in question. I guess we will just have to wait to see how you handle disputes should there ever be one.

Cheers