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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2009, 03:18 AM
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Default Mods to Mustang 302

As I get closer to be being street legal (VIN allocated; engineering this week), I have been able to do some kilometres on back roads and check cooling, electrics, etc., and test the impact of the standard Mustang with the T5 gearbox. Overall, I am most impressed with its performance in the Harrison. Smooth and quiet but with a nice hard note when revved and plenty of power. Nice Ford 'beat' there.

I am thinking in advance, however, towards some future engine mods. I want a relatively balanced, user-friendly set up with no racing planned at this stage. My initial thoughts involved fitting some quality alloy heads and a MasFlo induction system. Other more random thoughts involved a cam change and moderate capacity increase/stroking.

I would really appreciate any advice on the types of alloy heads that others have found to be effective and sources for the MasFlo set up. Also any advice on other top-end improvements that are recommended at the same time. Really any advice on the small block would be great!

Many thanks,

Merv
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Old 05-10-2009, 06:10 AM
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Hi Merv

Do you have any specific goals?
Are you probably going to DIY and if so - to what level.
Are there any budget constraints (ball park)

ta
LoBelly
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:03 PM
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Thanks LoBelly. I am thinking of both improved but manageable performance and appearance on the MasFlo. I figure I could manage that myself. The heads - well again I could do that as well. Have done many others. Kind of depends on time available in some ways.

No budget limits imposed at this stage.


Merv
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Old 05-10-2009, 05:00 PM
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I am particularly interested in others experiences with alloy heads and the MasFlo.

Merv
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Old 05-10-2009, 07:40 PM
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Thumbs up 300kW enough?

I dont have EFI so perhaps you'll get some more comprehensive answers from some of those guys.

But, I would be looking at articles like this:

http://www.airflowresearch.com/artic...le087/A-P1.htm

to see if this sort of thing appeals to you or if you can take something from it.

Personally if I were going to this much trouble I'd also go for a Cam from Ford Racing (say E or F303)- good bang for buck - and upgrade the oil pump and add a main girdle if I thought it would regularly see 6000+rpm. That's just a reflection on my comfort zone.

A number of guys in out club have converted to a more traditional single plane carby manifold with a 4v throttle body and have had good results.

The advantage of an upgrade like this is that a lot of your existing drive train and fuel system can probably cope - not sure about injectors/ECU.

Good Luck with whatever you choose and make sure to take lots of pics to update us on progress

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Old 05-10-2009, 09:00 PM
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Thanks LoBelly. That was the same article that I found this morning! Very impressive gains. I have seen the MasFlo installation in progress and it also includes a new EFI and has a 4v throttle body.

I was wondering if there are any particular heads (brands?) that people have found better than others? I guess that they come with new rockers. I have installed a new oil pump already but maybe that is still not enough and I should get a bigger volume one?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2009, 10:32 PM
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Merv, For what it worth.

In a previous life I was going to build a 392 Windsor based on a 351 Windsor block and was looking at putting a mass-flo injection system on top of it.

In fact the mass-flo injection system was what enthused me to consult with Qld. Transport (God bless their souls) as to whether they would accept the engine given a whole heap of emission data forwarded to me from the mass-flo folks.

In fact, the objective was to try and get Qld. Transport to accept an injected engine along the above lines for Qld. Cobra club members. Don Pilling of Snakebite fame and myself started the process but eventually it all fell into a heap. The key was/is access to a testing station.

The advice was ... they would certainly accept the engine if we could prove the emission status. They (Qld Transport) even gave us the name of a company in Brisbane which was looking at setting up an emission testing station. Sadly, that company did not invest in the equipment, owing, in their words, to lack of some agreement with Qld Transport.

Long story short, The mountain of research I undertook for this engine lead to the following conclusions. With any small block windsor do not install high volume oil pumps. There are a number of reasons I wont go into here but a blue printed standard pump is more than sufficient.

Secondly, AFR heads were the ducks nuts. The size (165/185/205's etc.) of the heads would depend on the cam chosen and the desired rev range.

I would suggest you consult with the mass-flo folks as to some past installs matched to your end desires.

What I can tell you is that a friend of mine did build a 331ci windsor with a mass-flo on top, AFR 185 heads, and a custom crane hyd roller cam. That engine went into a beautifully restored mustang and was an absolute beast.

It would start first crank, idled with a slight but purposeful lope, would behave in heavy traffic but would burn the treads in first and second in the heavy mustang. The transmission was a Ford Motor sport M7003A T5 with a 2.95 first.

I know this doesn't help much but I do think guidance from Mass-flo is the key to a balanced well performing engine if their intake is what you are after.
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Last edited by Rebel1; 05-11-2009 at 12:29 AM..
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:10 PM
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I agree with Rebel1, AFR's are the way to go. With EFI, the fuel is pumped into the runners via the injectors so air speed is not critical. What's best from my experience is volume with respect to EFI. Bigger is generally better so I would go at least the 185's or the 205's. (Got a mate whose using 205's on this modded 302 with no problems at all).

I'm using Autronic SM4 and would recommend this ECU.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:32 PM
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Thanks guys - I will check out the AFR heads and also see what the compatibility is with the MasFlo set up. I am keen to get rid of that ugly plenum on top of the motor and to make it look more authentic!

Good advice (and Les you really did your homework on that!). I also seem to recall that the 331 capacity is a nice one for a balance between torque and 'rev-ability'?

Thanks again,

Merv
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:41 PM
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I have still not started my engine yet, but have a 347 stroked windsor with AFR 185 heads, the smaller chamber version for higher compression.

I have fitted a MassFlo system. I am excited about the power output which I anticipate should be somewhere between 420 and 450 hp.

I was luck enough to purchase all the gear when the dollar was worth something, so it was quite a reasonable price.

Engine builder did some fancy lightening of the crank etc and seem to think the little Windsor will think its way bigger and tougher than it is........much like Troy Dann.

Photos in my gallery. I was advised by the engineer that I spoke to here, that the emmissions shouldnt be an issue for me in the NT as the MassFlo system sensors and computer are mostly all factory ford.

We don't actually test emmissions here......just meet the requirements in principle.

Regards

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2009, 01:47 AM
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Hi Merv and Sharon, Im in the same position as Hogster not having started my motor yet. Ive gone with a 347 roller using AFR 185 heads and Morrison Injection and am using the Autronic SM4 computer, the same as Nassty. Im hoping to start the car within the next 6 weeks. I have approval to get the car registered providing emissions are in line with ADR requirements. The only thing I want to change after rego is to put the sidepipes on.

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Old 05-11-2009, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon View Post
I also seem to recall that the 331 capacity is a nice one for a balance between torque and 'rev-ability'?

Thanks again,

Merv
Merv, You are correct. The 347 was all the rage then as it is now and it is a great engine. However, at that time some folks were having problems with the 347 with blocks cracking down the valley and some had oil consumption problems caused by oil ring intersecting the gudgeon. Not so much of a problem now with newer pistons and ring sets.

The block machinist suggested 331ci and claimed a higher horsepower with less torque but an engine more willing to rev and that's exactly how it performed.

It was however an engine which required low rear gears to allow the revs to build quickly.

At that time I lived at Newport Waterways on the peninsular and this mate used to announce his pending arrival by winding this mustang out on a few twisty bits entering the estate and not touching the brake until he pulled up outside.

The thing would make beautiful music as he worked up and down the gears. Lucky I had some rev heads as neighbours.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mando View Post
Hi Merv and Sharon, Im in the same position as Hogster not having started my motor yet. Ive gone with a 347 roller using AFR 185 heads and Morrison Injection and am using the Autronic SM4 computer, the same as Nassty. Im hoping to start the car within the next 6 weeks. I have approval to get the car registered providing emissions are in line with ADR requirements. The only thing I want to change after rego is to put the sidepipes on.

Regards.
Hi Mando,

I don't know how much tuning you personally plan to do but I tell everyone who's thinking of using aftermarket ECUs that the best tuner is yourself. All you need is a wideband A/F meter. I've got an Innovate LM1 which cost less than $400 from Rocket Industries. It's now been superceeded by the LM2 which will probably cost a bit more (+ the AUD is weaker too) but ask if they still have any LM1's lying around. The Innovate A/F meter can easily be configured to run an anologue output into the SM4 (via the O2 sensor input) which then allows you to datalog which makes tuning on the road a breeze.

Only bugger with Autronic is the poor support they give. Most of what I've learnt has been through common sense and trial and error.

I originally had the cobra on a dyno to get WOT safe but no tuner can tune a car for drivability in a couple of hours. It has taken me months to get everything right. Firstly I used MAP for the load input but later I remapped it for throttle position which I found to be much better. Good luck with the tuning and please ask if you have any SM4 questions.

Cheers

Al
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:58 AM
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Thanks for the tips Nassty.

Regards.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:24 AM
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At the bottom of the archive list on AFR's website is the 'Ultimate Guide to 5.0 heads'
which would be worth a look at
http://www.airflowresearch.com/store/articles.php

also articles like '650HP 302...' etc which are good for a laugh

Comp Cams also have a series of engine build-up from magazines and have several 8.2in based builds at various strengths.

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/

Note that when ordering your heads the same casting will have different part #s depending on the studs/spring pressures etc. (for flat tappet/hyd.roller or solid roller cams)

When comparing costs you also have to check that your intended lift will work with the installed springs - I think some people have found that AFR's may need a spring-kit if you're building a funky stroker.

Personally I went with the Edelbrock at the time because the price/performance was great value in my opinion - a number of guys down here have very nice 302's running Performer RPMs. Not pushing - just suggesting that this might be a way of evaluating what you're going to do.

It is probably worth looking at the various sites of the manufacturers because they update the product lines & specs every now and then and the articles quoting the specs etc may be several years old.

Quote:
I guess that they come with new rockers.
They dont - you get to choose for yourself - adds to the fun.
Personally I went for the 1.6:1 so the cam could operate as designed.

I notice that Keith Craft is auctioning some nice SBF stuff that I would definately consider if I was in the market.

Finally, here is my pithy comment on re-curving the air-fuel...




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Old 05-11-2009, 02:51 PM
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Geez! This is turning into a great thread! Great advice. Will need to read/digest this more later in the day but I suspect that I may need to find a good engine builder! Great engine Hogster and I still think I will get the full MasFlo kit and then heads/injectors to suit as LoBelly and Rebel1 suggest (altho I think the MasFlo kits has injectors).

Of course in QLD all this is dependent on the emissions being as good as or better than the original measurement at engineering/registration (if done). I do like the look of the aircleaner on top of the 4 throttle body manifold ...

Merv
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:34 PM
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Default Complete package

I have dart pro 1 heads on my 360 windsor, they were custom ported and flowed with great results.

The range of heads available is fantastic just keep in mind the final compression ratio and piston to valve clearance. Some of the heads will use the larger 2.02 intake valve and unless the pistons have some large fly cuts they wont fit.

My opinion only, if you were to spend money on an engine, start from scratch with a complete package from sump to fuel and induction systems. This does not mean all new parts but a carefully designed specification. I have seen Windsors with stock heads ( ported and flowed) perform better than engines with fancy bolt on parts.

Never use a solid roller cam, they allow you to make lots of power but what a pain in the arse.

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Old 05-11-2009, 04:12 PM
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Default MassFlo

The MassFlo rep was extremely helpful in providing contacts for me to assist in persuading the engineer that I would meet emmissions.....including a contact in the US that met their emissions standard without CATS.

The kit includes injectors, and is very easy to assemble.........even I could work it out.......

Chris will require the details of your intended build to "customise" the tune for you (bore/stroke/cam specs/heads etc). He also sent me the computer file map in case I want to play with tuning myself later.

It was a pleasure doing business and reading the US site blogs there were a couple of cobra owners with exactly my build recipe. They were all very happy with the results.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:58 PM
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You ford fellas know the success of the mass-flo system relies on a chevy bit don't you?.

All the more reason to get it me thinks.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
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My opinion only, if you were to spend money on an engine, start from scratch with a complete package from sump to fuel and induction systems. This does not mean all new parts but a carefully designed specification. I have seen Windsors with stock heads ( ported and flowed) perform better than engines with fancy bolt on parts.

Have to agree with Philm. I got my GT40P heads ported (They had 1.94s intake valves from Tickford) and with my mild cam produced about 420HP at the fly.
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