Kirk! We're under attack!! Suspension help.

[RedHawk]

Time to upgrade Suspension and and ready to shell outbthe dough.

Hey CR owners I'm fairly new to the club and I am thoroughly enjoying the ride, well not exactly.

When cruising I'll see a bump coming and its like a scene from Das Boot where they have to brace for a depth charge or better yet when Kirk and the crew have to brace on the bridge for a Klingon attack. I come upon the bump and grit my teeth and squint my eyes and bam!. I quickly take crude inventory of whether I see parts flying off from the rear etc... Its even worse when I have a passenger.

Anyway I have been reading any thread I can find on the subject and I have narrowed it down to the solution. I just need some final advise as to any reccomened specs and or missing items.

Current set up.1997 CR
*mustang 2 Front year? and 8.8 rear. Pictures attached.
*351W. 15"with avon 245 and 295.Love the avons
* 11" wilwood front brakes installed and drums on the back.
*Front sway bar no rear.

I want a hybrid ride with 30% track time and 70% street. When on street I am not just drag racing but taking corners too and of course cruising. I also want to hopefully bolt on and go.

What I know or think I know is the following:
I want the best quality for performance. Price is secondary or not a major concern.

*Install QA1 2 way adjustable coilovers in the rear with what lb spring 250-300lb? Should I leave spring that is currently installed? (some have mentioned that here)
*Replace front A arms with tubular but what kind Heidts, as already mentioned I have a wilwood front setup? So many options my eyes glaze over. I want the best. QA1 adjuatable coil overs in front? Spring rate front?
*FYI, Phase 2 I plan on upgrading to Ididit steering column and steering gear for more precise input.
*Not an expert at all so anything else I should do on this first phase or things to be aware of like replace bushings, fabrication(I will but would prefer not to have to weld brackets?)

P.S. Just want to send a shout out to Texas Snake.This forum has been very helpful in that I lost a spinner awhile back and Texas Snake came to the rescue.

Thanks!!

[Wisconsin_Snake]

I take it that the front sway bar is the one that came with the kit.. Ditch that as it's made for a Bronco and WAY to hefty for a Cobra... It's 1.25" I think... Handling will improve tremendously. This is per DV...
The CR should have something like a 7/8" bar. If you find one that fits. let me know what it's out of..
It's the lower arms and going to a-arms that's supposed to be the next upgrade, but if you are doing that, the upper A's might as well get updated to.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Snake

I take it that the front sway bar is the one that came with the kit.. Ditch that as it's made for a Bronco and WAY to hefty for a Cobra... It's 1.25" I think... Handling will improve tremendously. This is per DV...
The CR should have something like a 7/8" bar. If you find one that fits. let me know what it's out of..
It's the lower arms and going to a-arms that's supposed to be the next upgrade, but if you are doing that, the upper A's might as well get updated to.

Why would a Mustang II suspension have a Bronco anti-sway bar? That makes no sense to me. My suspension is M2, and the bar is nowhere near 1.25" O.D. - though mine is a WCC, not a CR II.

[RedHawk]

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Snake

I take it that the front sway bar is the one that came with the kit.. Ditch that as it's made for a Bronco and WAY to hefty for a Cobra... It's 1.25" I think... Handling will improve tremendously. This is per DV...
The CR should have something like a 7/8" bar. If you find one that fits. let me know what it's out of..
It's the lower arms and going to a-arms that's supposed to be the next upgrade, but if you are doing that, the upper A's might as well get updated to.

Okay I'll look and see what the specs are. That's rediculous.
Thanks.

[rbgray1]

Originally Posted by RedHawk

Okay I look and see specs. That's rediculous.
Thamks.

RedHawk,

I'm currently doing the same exact updates and in final stages of picking Heidt's.

You are correct, there are 2 different types of coil overs for Mustang II suspensions,

the first and easier upgrade changes Upper and Lower a arms, the lower still maintains the strut bar or not (your choice, you'd need to weld a bracket for a lower tubular a arm if you want to eliminate the strut Rod). This set-up uses the "stock" upper coil spring perch and shock mount while the lower A-Arm hold the adjustable coil over and shock. Fairly quick and easy if you elect to keep the lower strut arm, just replace with a tubular unit with poly bushings.

The second and a little more involved is to go to "true" coil overs where you also need to cut off the upper "stock" spring perch and shock mount and weld in a new upper coil over shock mount or perch. Your coil overs in this set-up would then have a single bolt in the upper mount and a single bolt in the lower a - arm. I don't think these are done to our cars very often due to complexity of suspension geometry. If you weld the new upper perch in wrong, suspension geometry will be affected. This is not very difficult to do, just requires patience and good measurements. I'm I-Car certified welder and have my own TIG and MIG machines, so I'm not worried about that.

I'm leaning to #2 as I think it's a cleaner look and I believe provides more adjustability options. Also, one of the fundamental problems with MII suspensions that I have never liked is when you take weight of the front suspension (when the frame is supported by a lift or jackstands), the downstop that carries ALL of the unsprung weight of the car is the upper shock bushing. In stock MII cars, this frequently destroys the upper shock bushing and also can damage the internal shock valving if left for extended periods (Like 4-6 months of storing on jack stands to eliminate tire flat spots).

Is this what you were referring to?

[rbgray1]

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Snake

I take it that the front sway bar is the one that came with the kit.. Ditch that as it's made for a Bronco and WAY to hefty for a Cobra... It's 1.25" I think... Handling will improve tremendously. This is per DV...
The CR should have something like a 7/8" bar. If you find one that fits. let me know what it's out of..
It's the lower arms and going to a-arms that's supposed to be the next upgrade, but if you are doing that, the upper A's might as well get updated to.

Wisconsin Snake,

Have you ever found a front bar that worked. I've read DV posts and also agree, this bar is WAY too big for a 2200lb car. I will be talking with the Reps at Heidt's this week to see if they have a smaller bar. Problem is where the stock bar mounts to the frame inside the front chin scoop. I've never liked the look, but don't know if there are any other options.

Let me know if you have any info and if Heidt's has something, I'll respond as well.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by RedHawk

Time to upgrade Suspension and and ready to shell outbthe dough.

Hey CR owners I'm fairly new to the club and I am thoroughly enjoying the ride, well not exactly.

When cruising I'll see a bump coming and its like a scene from Das Boot where they have to brace for a depth charge or better yet when Kirk and the crew have to brace on the bridge for a Klingon attack. I come upon the bump and grit my teeth and squint my eyes and bam!. I quickly take crude inventory of whether I see parts flying off from the rear etc... Its even worse when I have a passenger.

Anyway I have been reading any thread I can find on the subject and I have narrowed it down to the solution. I just need some final advise as to any reccomened specs and or missing items.

Current set up.1997 CR
*mustang 2 Front year? and 8.8 rear. Pictures attached.
*351W. 15"with avon 245 and 295.Love the avons
* 11" wilwood front brakes installed and drums on the back.
*Front sway bar no rear.

I want a hybrid ride with 30% track time and 70% street. When on street I am not just drag racing but taking corners too and of course cruising. I also want to hopefully bolt on and go.

What I know or think I know is the following:
I want the best quality for performance. Price is secondary or not a major concern.

*Install QA1 12 way adjustable coilovers in the rear with what lb spring 250-300lb? Should I leave spring that is currently installed? (some have mentioned that here)
*Replace front A arms with tubular but what kind Heidts, as already mentioned I have a wilwood front setup? So many options my eyes glaze over. I want the best. QA1 adjuatable coil overs in front? Spring rate front?
*FYI, Phase 2 I plan on upgrading to Ididit steering column and steering gear for more precise input.
*Not an expert at all so anything else I should do on this first phase or things to be aware of like replace bushings, fabrication(I will but would prefer not to have to weld brackets?)

P.S. Just want to send a shout out to Texas Snake.This forum has been very helpful in that I lost a spinner awhile back and Texas Snake came to the rescue.

Thanks!!

I have a very similar suspension in my West Coast Cobra (original Mustang II front end, Ford 9" live axle in the back). The WCC is heavier than your CR2, plus a slightly longer WB (96") - so keep that in mind. Mine is running QA1 single adjustable coil-overs in the front with 465 lbs/in springs, and the rear is 400 lbs/in coil springs with QA1 single adjustable shocks. IIRC, front shocks are set at position 5 (4 clicks up from softest setting), while the rears are set at 4. There are no real ride quality issues, no clenching of teeth when hitting bumps, and I can adjust them from very soft to rock hard just by reaching under the car and twisting dials.

BTW, mine has both front and rear sway bars, but I don't see any sign of a rear bar on yours.

I have looked at going to tubular control arms for my Mustang II front end, but haven't yet seen enough value in making the change. Perhaps others could shed some light on the benefits.

BTW, here's a thread you may want to check out: Frustrated Canuck in need of suspension help!!

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by rbgray1

Wisconsin Snake,

Have you ever found a front bar that worked. I've read DV posts and also agree, this bar is WAY too big for a 2200lb car. I will be talking with the Reps at Heidt's this week to see if they have a smaller bar. Problem is where the stock bar mounts to the frame inside the front chin scoop. I've never liked the look, but don't know if there are any other options.

Let me know if you have any info and if Heidt's has something, I'll respond as well.

Is 2200 pounds typical for a CR II? That seems light to me by about 300-500 pounds. Have you weighed your Classic Roadster

[RedHawk]

Originally Posted by rbgray1

RedHawk,

I'm currently doing the same exact updates and in final stages of picking Heidt's.

You are correct, there are 2 different types of coil overs for Mustang II suspensions,

the first and easier upgrade changes Upper and Lower a arms, the lower still maintains the strut bar or not (your choice, you'd need to weld a bracket for a lower tubular a arm if you want to eliminate the strut Rod). This set-up uses the "stock" upper coil spring perch and shock mount while the lower A-Arm hold the adjustable coil over and shock. Fairly quick and easy if you elect to keep the lower strut arm, just replace with a tubular unit with poly bushings.

The second and a little more involved is to go to "true" coil overs where you also need to cut off the upper "stock" spring perch and shock mount and weld in a new upper coil over shock mount or perch. Your coil overs in this set-up would then have a single bolt in the upper mount and a single bolt in the lower a - arm. I don't think these are done to our cars very often due to complexity of suspension geometry. If you weld the new upper perch in wrong, suspension geometry will be affected. This is not very difficult to do, just requires patience and good measurements. I'm I-Car certified welder and have my own TIG and MIG machines, so I'm not worried about that.

I'm leaning to #2 as I think it's a cleaner look and I believe provides more adjustability options. Also, one of the fundamental problems with MII suspensions that I have never liked is when you take weight of the front suspension (when the frame is supported by a lift or jackstands), the downstop that carries ALL of the unsprung weight of the car is the upper shock bushing. In stock MII cars, this frequently destroys the upper shock bushing and also can damage the internal shock valving if left for extended periods (Like 4-6 months of storing on jack stands to eliminate tire flat spots).

Is this what you were referring to?

Yes. See although Ive been welding since I was 5, 45 now, I still just play one on TV. I do have a speed shop that has a TIG&MIG they said I could use or pay them to do. Probably will do the latter.

If I'm hearing you wrong my appologies but what if I juat replaced the whole set for something like this except the Wilwood brake set up that I already have in place?

Plus does it look like coil over QA1 will simply bolt on at the back of 8.8 rear or do you think there will be clearance issues?

Thanks!

[RedHawk]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I have a very similar suspension in my West Coast Cobra (original Mustang II front end, Ford 9" live axle in the back). The WCC is heavier than your CR2, plus a slightly longer WB (96") - so keep that in mind. Mine is running QA1 single adjustable coil-overs in the front with 465 lbs/in springs, and the rear is 400 lbs/in coil springs with QA1 single adjustable shocks. IIRC, front shocks are set at position 5 (4 clicks up from softest setting), while the rears are set at 4. There are no real ride quality issues, no clenching of teeth when hitting bumps, and I can adjust them from very soft to rock hard just by reaching under the car and twisting dials.

BTW, mine has both front and rear sway bars, but I don't see any sign of a rear bar on yours.

I have looked at going to tubular control arms for my Mustang II front end, but haven't yet seen enough value in making the change. Perhaps others could shed some light on the benefits.

BTW, here's a thread you may want to check out: Frustrated Canuck in need of suspension help!!

Yeah I read that Thread. Still leaves me with questions which is why I posted this thread. I suppose I should take DV's advise and just call QA1 and Heidts and ask. Figured I would ask the forum comminty first. Love this forum.

Also from some of my other reading it states tubular is for looks. I've talked with Shell Valley and I can get QA1 reolacement for the MII i currently have.

[CobraEd]

I took both the front and rear bars off years ago and the car runs beautifully without them. Nice crisp handling along with a great ride. Not harsh anymore.


.

[rbgray1]

Originally Posted by RedHawk

Yes. See although Ive been welding since I was 5, 45 now, I still just play one on TV. I do have a speed shop that has a TIG&MIG they said I could use or pay them to do. Probably will do the latter.

If I'm hearing you wrong my appologies but what if I juat replaced the whole set for something like this except the Wilwood brake set up that I already have in place?

Plus does it look like coil over QA1 will simply bolt on at the back of 8.8 rear or do you think there will be clearance issues?

Thanks!

Redhawk,

Yes, the Heidt's stuff is great. Keep in mind, you wont be using their crossmember kit as the stock CR has the crossmember already.

Also, Heidt's has various levels of A Arms, disc brake options, etc. I'm going tubular upper and lower with QA1 shocks.

On the back 8.8 I originally installed the 4 link, anti sway bar, AND the horizontal "anti wheel hop" shock absorbers. I'm going to chat with DV and also Heidt's soon and discuss best options for rear upgrades as I also want to convert to Willwood 11" discs in the rear (with E-Brake Option) and 4 Link upgrades to tubular adjustable.

[rbgray1]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Is 2200 pounds typical for a CR II? That seems light to me by about 300-500 pounds. Have you weighed your Classic Roadster

Cycle guy,

Yes, 2200 is a little light. Mine is actually just under 2400. I was actually just throwing out a number to state that these cars are very light. Heck, even my C6 Vette is around 3300lbs

[RedHawk]

Originally Posted by rbgray1

Redhawk,

Yes, the Heidt's stuff is great. Keep in mind, you wont be using their crossmember kit as the stock CR has the crossmember already.

Also, Heidt's has various levels of A Arms, disc brake options, etc. I'm going tubular upper and lower with QA1 shocks.

On the back 8.8 I originally installed the 4 link, anti sway bar, AND the horizontal "anti wheel hop" shock absorbers. I'm going to chat with DV and also Heidt's soon and discuss best options for rear upgrades as I also want to convert to Willwood 11" discs in the rear (with E-Brake Option) and 4 Link upgrades to tubular adjustable.

Please let me know what you find out. Itching to place an order asap. I talked to Heidts today and honeslty a little disapointed with the advise. Although I'm no fnewgi I felt like I was dictating the conversation. Felt they(she) would have know a little more about what I should purchase. I left it with" I'll get back to you." To be fair I did come away with having to check measurements from outside hub to outside hub along with current OEM upper Arm measurement from ball joint to center of where A arm attaxhes to cross member. I figured that OEM specs on that would be standard.

Also I did measure on the back axle for the current shock clearance was 12 7/8 from center of lower bolt attachment to upper bolt attachment. Picture above. The width was about 2 1/2 ". Doubt without a newly welded bracket that any coil over would simply bolt up here.

[RedHawk]

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Snake

I take it that the front sway bar is the one that came with the kit.. Ditch that as it's made for a Bronco and WAY to hefty for a Cobra... It's 1.25" I think... Handling will improve tremendously. This is per DV...
The CR should have something like a 7/8" bar. If you find one that fits. let me know what it's out of..
It's the lower arms and going to a-arms that's supposed to be the next upgrade, but if you are doing that, the upper A's might as well get updated to.

Right on! What heck. So given the fact that I dont have a rear sway bar and then remove the front this should improve the ride and handling? Not doubting you or DV just want to be clear.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by RedHawk

Please let me know what you find out. Itching to place an order asap. I talked to Heidts today and honeslty a little disapointed with the advise. Although I'm no fnewgi I felt like I was dictating the conversation. Felt they(she) would have know a little more about what I should purchase. I left it with" I'll get back to you." To be fair I did come away with having to check measurements from outside hub to outside hub along with current OEM upper Arm measurement from ball joint to center of where A arm attaxhes to cross member. I figured that OEM specs on that would be standard.

Also I did measure on the back axle for the current shock clearance was 12 7/8 from center of lower bolt attachment to upper bolt attachment. Picture above. The width was about 2 1/2 ". Doubt without a newly welded bracket that any coil over would simply bolt up here.

Do you need coilovers in the back? Coilovers are great if you need to adjust ride height or corner-weighting, but if you have them on the front you may be able to use QA1 adjustable shocks in the back along with your existing coil springs.

[RedHawk]

Holy Smokes I can't believe a bunch of posts on this thread got erased. Multiply that by everyone else equals =Sucks a Big One. It looks like they rolled back to last backup.

I went to my clipboard file and low and behold I still had my last post, lol! Lets try this again. Someone needs to step up here. Looks like broken strings in db. Hell I dont know.
------------------
Alright so some progress reports and pics.

Brakes are sweet!
You can see the difference between the little iddy biddy wilwood calipers I had and the new ones going on.

One of the pics show where the two brackets will be welded for lower A-arms support

Taking DV's advise and ditching front sway bar. Looking into sleedway to fabricate a more suitable one. 7/8?

While in there I found a whole bunch of assembly errors which are too many to mention, but figured I'd mention a couple below.

A completely mismatched carb at 850 cfm. What??? Went with double pumper holly 570 cfm for 351w. On the phone with Holly tech we calculated size based on zip code, my stunning good looks, cat rangling skills and my
ability to talk my way out of 3 tickets when going over 100mph(dont belive me ask my wife). I live in Colorado so altitude was a factor. My car was drowning in gas.

Relocating fuel filter to gas tank which should help with vapor lock.

Relocated coil to front of block where factory typicaly mounts them. It was dangling on the inner fender area.

Remounted alternator. It was crunching coolant house so probably chocking off coolant.

Resealed gas filler cap.

All new fuel houses. Resucured loose wiring.

New Oil PCV to flow back via braided lines to engine and not spray all over the place like a sh&t faced frat boy on Saturday night.

Since the calipers were a close fit in the back wheel we grinded them to fit perfectly. Sending back to powder coater to make it look like nothing ever happened (Plug for Allstate) They do this with the Porsche race cars when calipres are tight.

Hope this post stays put.

[Wisconsin_Snake]

I wounder if this sway bar would work with the Classic Roadster chassis?
https://www.fabquest.com/mustang-ii/...-ifs-kits.html

Also RedHawk, do the new rotors bolt up to your old Wilwood hubs?

[RedHawk]

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Snake

I wounder if this sway bar would work with the Classic Roadster chassis?
https://www.fabquest.com/mustang-ii/...-ifs-kits.html

Also RedHawk, do the new rotors bolt up to your old Wilwood hubs?

Not sure on sway bar but I have new hubs with the new set of Wilwoods.

[RedHawk]

Update:

Below are pictures of recent progress.

• Front brake calipers are tight fit, but expected that so we're grinding down calipers as we did to the rear ones for proper fitment.

• Another pic shows rear brakes, shock and spring setup. The one pic shows adjustment dials facing wrong way the other showing the addition of the spring was the correct position.

• Also we have decided to go another route for securing the front lower A-arms. We're going to fab up an angle bracket instead which we believe will be simpler in design and stronger. I'll post once I get it done.

• Lol, so since I have put some respectable brakes on this car I went through everything related and found that whom ever assembled this vehicle just did it for looks and not function, so we're venting the brakes from the front fake vents.Not sure why this wasn't done since its very simple to do.

• I also order new headers since the current one's were shot. Going to wrap them in that titanium DEI.

• New 7/8 sway bar has been ordered too.

• Moving rear door latch to make room for larger tires. Also installing a new bump stop that we can shave for proper fit. Also once we removed the rear Monroe shocks on the back one of them was completely shot. Probably one of the reasons the ride was so bad, you think!

[list]
Lastly while installing rear brakes I had decided to inspect the rear end and although the gears looked in perfect condition I decided to see what the ratio was. 411?! Does this make any sense? This isn't my area of expertise, but doesn't this seem pretty high? I guess it does help with the kick in the pants acceleration, but wondered if anyone had a better recommendation.