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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2004, 06:35 PM
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Default Toploader 4 speed

Hello everyone. I am the new guy - first post on this forum.

Knowing very little about transmissions my goal is to learn as much as I can here.

My Project - at this point you may as well call it a dream is to remove the automatic and replace with Toploader 4 speed in my 69' Mach 1 Mustang (351 Windsor).

I have been gathering the parts that I think I will need for over a year now. slow process, mainly e-bay, trusting that the sellers know what they are talking about.

Can anyone confirm that this gearbox/ tailshaft / bellhousing combo will work behind a 351 W?

Casting #'s
Gearbox #C5AR-7006-D-W1
#HEH-CL 01-01 9

Tail Shaft #C50R-7A040-C

Bellhousing (Aluminum)
# C5AA-6394-B

If they will not fit , should I sell or can I retrofit easily so that they will work?

Thank you,
Paul
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2004, 05:39 AM
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Well, you're gonna have to have a new driveshaft probably...but the first thing to check is the input shaft. A small block needs a small input (1-1/16 Diameter) and a long pilot (1.125").

For further reference, go here:

www.4speedtoploaders.com

Then click on ID charts...and you can get all the info you ever need.

I just checked, and the HEH-CL was in a 390GT Fairlane. More than likely the input shaft will not work with your 351W. The reason being, the input shaft pilot (the little stubby thing on the very end) is too short...probably around .75". This is not long enough to fully engage the pilot bearing/bushing in the end of the crankshaft, and will probably prematurely cause lots of problems.

That's a wide ratio 28 spline tranny....which would be fine for your application, assuming everything inside is cherry.

You might wanna look again at that tailhousing ID. David Kee's website doesn't have a listing for a C5 tailhousing. Does it match the tranny? For instance, mainshafts (the shaft sticking out of the back of the tranny) come in 24, 25, and 27" lengths...you have to have the appropriate tailhousing to fit it. My guess from looking at his website is that you need a 14" tailhousing (fits a 24" mainshaft).

I believe you could use a longer shaft and tailhousing....you would just have to shorten your driveshaft which you'll probably have to do anyway...and you'll have to find the appropriate shifter bracket that mounts on the tailhousing to get the shifter in the right spot in the floor.

Lastly, the bellhousing is for an FE big block...it won't fit your small block. You'll have to get rid of it.

So basically this is the parts you'll need now:

1. A bellhousing
2. A small block input shaft
3. You need to check on what tailhousing you for sure have
4. Shifter plate and rods to stick the shifter in the right spot.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2004, 09:00 PM
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Thanks for the great info. and the web link.

Guess I will start at the top. Measured the input shaft and do have the 10 spline (1 1/16) but as you told me to look for it does have the short .75" inch pilot.

Solution: Buy new input shart w/ longer pilot. Is this something I can swap out myself or are springs & gears going to pop out all over the place?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purchased a driveshaft (e-bay) that seller said was from a standard tranny 351 Windsor. Not verified, at garage w/ friends getting new u-joints.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opened up the top cover and all looks to be in good order from the untrained eye. (First time looking into one of these lots of gears in there) No metal shavings and gear teeth look in good shape. One thing that I did notice is that there is side to side play in the input shaft however. Is this normal? seems sloppy to me.
Also there was no gasket on the top cover.

Is there anything in particular that I should look for out of place or worn? What would be some criteria for needing a rebuild?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Measured and have 14" tailshaft housing.
Rechecked # and I may have mistaken C5O for C6O which from the web site will fit the 390 but also small blocks like 302 and 289 are listed but not 351.
So I am not sure if this will work or not? since 351 is a small block

My shifter linkage plate does mount in the center of the 14" shaft much like the picture shown. But the tailshaft listed for the 351 looks to be set up for the shifter to be at the rear of the shaft.

My tailshaft does however (unlike the photo) have bump outs that look like they could be drilled out where the rear mounting of the shifter could happen.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Double checked the site for the bellhousing # and if you look further down the list C5AA-6394-B is listed as 69-73 302.
Looks like the FE is the "-A"
However the -B only lists 302 ..... 351 is listed under another number altogether.

Do you know if the 302 bell will fit the 351?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks again,
Paul
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2004, 04:58 AM
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A 302 bellhousing will fit a 351 or any small block Ford. Makes ure your bellhousing bolt pattern matches the block pattern. Some are 5-bolt bellhousings.....most newer blocks are 6 bolt.

You can change the input shaft yourself, but yes, things will jump out at you. If you're not used to doing mechanic work, this would be a biggie. If you're gonna go that far, there would be some other things that would need to be done I'd say...bearings, seals, etc. Just as a big recap, to change the input shaft, you will need to remove the tailhousing, then drop the countergear cluster (the shaft with the 4 gears on it that lies at the bottom of the tranny case) to the bottom by knocking the shaft out of the tranny case. This is rough because there are 2 thrust bearings that absolutely need to stay where they are....plus there are like 15-20 roller needle bearings on each side that can easily take a vacation. When that shaft comes out, the gears need to be dropped slowly to the bottom...then the input shaft can come out....you unbolt the input bearing retainer and it should just pop out. Of course you will need to press a bearing on the new one.....do you have access to an arbor press?

I would definitely hold out on the driveshaft. Did you even check to see if the slip yoke on the driveshaft slid up on the mainshaft in the tranny? And that it fit in the tailhousing? Some driveshafts are 28 spline, some are 31....some of the yokes are very big in diameter. I think a yoke for a Toploader is about 1.495" in diameter (OD).

Some of the things you will need to check when looking inside....see the brass blocking rings? The gear teeth next to them on the gears themselves need to be checked. They need to not be broken, stripped, or missing in anyway. Also, they need to be somewhat pointy on the face of them. This is so the synchronizer hubs can engage them easily.

You should also be able to take a wrench and shift the tranny pretty easy by turning on the shifter cams outside the case. Pay close attention to how easy it shifts....and more importantly, if you stick it in 3rd/4th gear, does the other shifter fork move? If so, then you have a missing interlock pin....

Also, under the top cover, when you remove all the bolts...there should be a bolt head that's flush with the case....is it there? There should be one sticking out of the side of the case also....where the shifter forks are. These are your detent plug bolts....they keep tension on the shifter rods. Not to be snotty or anything, but if this scares you, you might wanna take it to a tranny shop.

The input shaft shouldn't have much play at all. If it does, the bearing is probably worn....and probably along with the mainshaft bearing also....plus the tailhousing bushing and the seals. All of these should be replaced.

A C60 tailhousing sounds more like it. Is it on the tranny, or did you buy it separately? If you bought it separate, a 14" tailhousing will be fine. Just check on David Kee's website and see if it matches the type of tranny you have. A 28 spline tailhousing will not work on a 31 spline transmission, etc....It doesn't matter if it's a big block or a small block though...the tailhousing dioesn't know. You could have those bosses on the tailhousing drilled out and tapped if you need to. More than likely though, you can buy a shifter plate that will put the shifter where it needs to be.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2004, 05:44 AM
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David Kees can help you with all of this.

He is the expert in this field.

Phone is at the top of the forum.

Glad you are here at CC.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2004, 02:41 PM
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Thanks for all of the info.

Engine and Auto tranny are still in the car so next time I get under it I will check to see if the existing tranny is bolted to the engine w/ 5 or 6 bolts. I am preaty sure that it is the origional 69 block. It does for sure have the 69 casting heads on it.

The drive shaft that I have does have a 28 spline output yolk and does fit over the output shaft.

Your discription on how to replace the input shaft has definatly made me squemish. I don't think that I am going to attemp it myself.

-Looks like about a "g" for the rebuild at David Kees + most of the $400 core would probably get eaten up in shipping something so heavy I would imagine.

Outstanding:

- may need a different tail shaft
- still need clutch assembly
- drive shaft may still not be the correct length
- bell may not be correct bolt count
- shifter will probably need new rods to go to an adjusted location w/ new tailshaft

Other:
-May need a different starter to engage flywheel?
-May need to cut a hole in floor of car to allow for new pedal/ standard linkage to pass through.
-will linkage make it past the headers that are on the engine to the toploader tranny or will I need special headers?

Right now I am thinking that maybe I should just give up on the whole idea of changing this car to standard..........

Whereas not imposible, looks like alot more hard work ,time and money.
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Old 03-13-2004, 08:26 PM
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how much play, is too much play, on the input shaft?
and will a small block input shaft, work in a 390?
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