Patrick - LED Taillight problems

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

Well, I tried to stay out of this one...

Takeaway: not all LED bulbs are equal, even the same make, model and serial number.

If you don't understand this, I don't blame you!

Tom

I understand. After my initial believed success in post #78, I later re-tested and realized I didn't try the flashers with my parking lights and headlights turned off. When I tried my turn signals with the parking lights off, all 4 lights flashed. Same for the other turn signal. Choice was to always drive with my lights on (which I usually do) or go back to the 2357 bulbs. Flashers and brakes work fine with the parking lights and/or headlights on. I re-installed the 2357 bulbs. I think my problems are from the flasher unit. But ERA uses a pretty specific flasher unit and I don't know what would be appropriate to try as a substitute. I think the extra load with the lights on allows the flasher to function correctly somehow even though they are separate circuits. Basically, I'm back to surrender - 'no mas'.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DanEC

But ERA uses a pretty specific flasher unit and I don't know what would be appropriate to try as a substitute. I think the extra load with the lights on allows the flasher to function correctly somehow even though they are separate circuits. Basically, I'm back to surrender - 'no mas'.

There is nothing unique about the ERA wiring schematic. It's very, very straightforward. The "load" that is needed to trip the old fashioned mechanical flasher unit which, in turn, repeatedly interrupts the current to the trailer relay, comes from the front bulbs. So, you should only use old fashioned filament light bulbs up front. The trailer relay can be temperamental and it's a little tricky to test outside of the car. So, your best bet, when replacing the trailer relay, is to install the three inputs to the relay, while it just hangs down right there in the driver's leg area, and then "test wire" your lights with short, 1 foot long runs to your lights, that you have removed, and that are now just sitting on the driver's floor board. Just make sure you have a clean temporary ground wire running to those lights as well (for temporary ground wires, I always just run a long alligator clip wire directly to the negative battery terminal). Let me say it again, there are only three wires going in to the trailer relay, and two wires going out, and only the brake lights and turn signals are involved in this circuit. The parking lights have nothing to do with this. The circuit is ridiculously easy to test if you do it this way -- and testing it this way will "red flag" a wiring problem between the trailer relay and the back of the car. A nice, high-output, trailer relay, suitable for use in the ERA, can be bought off Amazon or the 'net. Look for 3-2, and "Heavy Duty." Here you go, this one would do just fine:

Ultra-Fab Heavy Duty Relay 3-2 Tail Light Converter 6-amp 36-947001 by Ultra-fab Products, Inc. for $10.97 : Rural King

[DanEC]

I feel I've invested more time in this endevor than it's worth. I've polished up the inside of my reflectors, added foil over the open areas on top and installed brighter flashing 2357 bulbs and it looks pretty good. It's not going to blind people sitting behind me a a stop light but they will see it unless they aren't paying attention texting or something - at which time it probably won't matter anyway.

I'm still thinking a flasher issue - that's what most LED bulb problems come down to. But maybe it is the trailer relay. My issues are just too wierd:

Install LED bulb in one front parking light:

- Parking lights off and turn signal on - all lights flash including license plate light.

- Parking light on and turn signal on - nothing happens on side with LED bulb.

- Tried both sides and tried two different LED bulbs and same results.

Install LED bulbs in rear only:

- Parking lights off and turn signal on - all 4 lights flash including license plate light.

- Parking lights on and turn signal for right or left side - turn signals and brake lights flash normally at front and rear.

Completely opposite results with parking lights on depending which end of the car I install the LEDs. Too wierd. I do have a couple extra trailer relay units so who knows - if I get to needing something to do.

[patrickt]

Yes, that's bizarre. But what I would like to see is if you had the exact same results when the lights are just temporarily wired one foot away from the relay itself, all hanging right there in front of the driver's seat, thereby eliminating all wiring issues from that point to the back of the car. There's a mistake, or a malfunctioning component, somewhere... there has to be.

[Tom Wells]

Dan,

My problem exactly: lights on, everything works as it is supposed to. Lights off - 4-way flasher effect.

I have an E-M which has to be wired similarly but probably not the same(?) as your ERA - same behavior.

I have a "heavy duty" flasher so tomorrow will try to find a "light duty" flasher

Tom

[DanEC]

Tom - I will be curious to hear what happens with the flasher experiment.

Patrick - maybe in warmer weather.

[Xack]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I feel I've invested more time in this endevor than it's worth. I've polished up the inside of my reflectors, added foil over the open areas on top and installed brighter flashing 2357 bulbs and it looks pretty good. It's not going to blind people sitting behind me a a stop light but they will see it unless they aren't paying attention texting or something - at which time it probably won't matter anyway.

I'm still thinking a flasher issue - that's what most LED bulb problems come down to. But maybe it is the trailer relay. My issues are just too wierd:

Install LED bulb in one front parking light:

- Parking lights off and turn signal on - all lights flash including license plate light.

- Parking light on and turn signal on - nothing happens on side with LED bulb.

- Tried both sides and tried two different LED bulbs and same results.

Install LED bulbs in rear only:

- Parking lights off and turn signal on - all 4 lights flash including license plate light.

- Parking lights on and turn signal for right or left side - turn signals and brake lights flash normally at front and rear.

Completely opposite results with parking lights on depending which end of the car I install the LEDs. Too wierd. I do have a couple extra trailer relay units so who knows - if I get to needing something to do.

Dan,
It seems you have feedback which has enough difference in potential to drive your lights on. My initial thought is regarding your grounds. You stated that should not be an issue. That is easy enough to measure.

I'm curious if you have similar issues if you just take one of the incandescent bulbs out and do not have any LED bulbs in your circuit. This may help you eliminate issues that do not depend on the LED question. LED's have low current and 12 volts can be measured at the hot side of the bulb when on. This is similar to open circuit condition.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Xack

Dan,
It seems you have feedback which has enough difference in potential to drive your lights on. My initial thought is regarding your grounds. You stated that should not be an issue. That is easy enough to measure.

I'm curious if you have similar issues if you just take one of the incandescent bulbs out and do not have any LED bulbs in your circuit. This may help you eliminate issues that do not depend on the LED question. LED's have low current and 12 volts can be measured at the hot side of the bulb when on. This is similar to open circuit condition.

I think it is some sort of cross-talk issue through the flasher, turn signal or trailer relay unit. That it's picking up the license plate lamp and flashing it is also wierd. About the only thing these 3 cirucuits have in common is the battery and grounding through the frame to the drivetrain.

So, you are suggesting to remove one of the four 1157 bulbs and try the turn signals and brakes to see what I have on the remaining 3 bulbs? Or jumper the power and ground at the removed bulb socket?

[Tom Wells]

I'm convinced it's the LEDs.

I tried to find an LED compatible electronic flasher locally yesterday and came back with one labelled EP-35. When I removed the thermal flasher (550) that was in there and replaced it with the electronic one, nothing happened. No flashing, no nothing with the lights on or off.

There were only a few combinations that seemed to work while keeping the 550 flasher in place: putting the original 1157 bulbs in all four sockets; or just the lower sockets with the Pilot LEDs in the uppers, or some no-name LEDs I got from Amazon in the same two lower sockets while the upper sockets were occupied by the Pilots.

For the time being the latter will stay even though the lower LEDs don't flash - well, maybe ever so slightly. The all-LED combo seems much brighter than the 1157s which is what I was after all along.

I do think I'll try to find a different electronic, LED-compatible flasher at some point.

Wearily,

Tom

[Xack]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I think it is some sort of cross-talk issue through the flasher, turn signal or trailer relay unit. That it's picking up the license plate lamp and flashing it is also wierd. About the only thing these 3 cirucuits have in common is the battery and grounding through the frame to the drivetrain.

So, you are suggesting to remove one of the four 1157 bulbs and try the turn signals and brakes to see what I have on the remaining 3 bulbs? Or jumper the power and ground at the removed bulb socket?

If you have the system with just incandescent bulbs, No LED's at all. Take a bulb out as if it's "blown" and see how the system operates. Will it do anything strange? No jumper anything at all.

The unplugging will help you see what acts normal when you isolate parts of your system by pulling bulbs out... However, your blinker circuits depends on a load for the flasher to work. When you take out the bulb, I would expect that side to not blink properly. The other side should work OK. This pulling the marker light bulb will check behavior for the marker light circuit only. Now, having said that, it may show something misbehaving and you can do these bulbs to try and isolate the problem.

I would suggest after all that and see if strangeness persists, to connect the ground on the offending bulbs to the battery ground or as close to it as possible. You can just put your VOM on ground at bulb and ground at battery to see if it goes up by any measure from 0 Volts to + something to drive a light on. Jumping the ground at the bulb should allow you to isolate issues surrounding grounding.

[Xack]

I had a similar thing with 2 incandescent bulbs in my dash linked to the individual circuits for showing turn signals. Also when I turned on the lights you could actually trace the lights coming on in a wave across the panel. The opposite side bulb would light dimly as the main bulb was bright. This was true for both bulbs. I had a daisy chain power to the dash gauges and bulbs and a similar approach to the grounds on each device. All I did was run each device ground wire to a common ground under the dash. That cured the problem. The lights on the dash are noticeably brighter.

[DanEC]

I just had a thought (no snide remarks please) - the people who have chimed in on this thread and said LEDs work in their tail lights in ERAs, have the round tail light option which I believe uses 4 bulbs instead of one being a reflector. Kevens2 has round lights, I know Patrick does, I think Large Arbor does. I have the rectangular tail lights with one bulb each.

Possibly, it takes the 4 LED lights together with the front ones to create the resistence properties necessary for everything to work. Without my parking lights on there just isn't enough load in the system and something is going wrong. When I turn on my parking lights the extra load on the system brings everything on and it works fine.

Is there anyone out there who hasn't given up on this thread already, with rectangular lights and had sucess with LEDs in the tail lights.

[patrickt]

I have the rectangular lights. Put everything back together, with the LEDs in the back, and REMOVE the #6 fuse. Try turning on your tail/parking lights. You shouldn't be able to because the fuse is out. Now, try your turn signals and see if they work normally.

[patrickt]

Now, assuming, with Fuse #6 out of the car, and both of the two little fast blow fuses installed properly, the LED turn signal still flashes all four corners regardless of whether you're signalling left or right, then I want you to remove ONE of the fast blow fuses and try the turn signals, in both directions, and report the results.

[Xack]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I just had a thought (no snide remarks please) - the people who have chimed in on this thread and said LEDs work in their tail lights in ERAs, have the round tail light option which I believe uses 4 bulbs instead of one being a reflector. Kevens2 has round lights, I know Patrick does, I think Large Arbor does. I have the rectangular tail lights with one bulb each.

Possibly, it takes the 4 LED lights together with the front ones to create the resistence properties necessary for everything to work. Without my parking lights on there just isn't enough load in the system and something is going wrong. When I turn on my parking lights the extra load on the system brings everything on and it works fine.

Is there anyone out there who hasn't given up on this thread already, with rectangular lights and had sucess with LEDs in the tail lights.

Patrick and Dan,
Dan, You did mention that you have 4 blinker relays? or 2? or 1? In most cases the blinker has at least 3 incandescent lights in a normal circuit. Front, Rear and the dash indicator. If you have a blinker relay for each light, the problem may be that each relay only has one LED for it's load. It's not easy to tell from the discussion. Most LED distributors sell loads for the LED blinkers to operate correctly. Do you have something like this installed? However it seems this is the opposite problem... Normally the load is needed to get the relay to blink. All your lights are blinking !! ??? I am cornfused!